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Slop Terrifies Me

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Re: Slop Terrifies Me

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most users just absolutely do not know about, care about, or worry about security, privacy, maintainability, robustness, or a host of other things. nitpick: most users don’t care about these things until something goes significantly wrong and it impacts them , e.g. a massive data breach or persistent global downtime. then they get angry. very angry. just because people don’t care about it now doesn’t mean they won’…

> nitpick: most users don’t care about these things until something goes significantly wrong and it impacts them, e.g. a massive data breach or persistent global downtime. > then they get angry. very angry. Yes, this has a lot of overlap with how humans differ from "Homo Economicus" [0]. Humans generally can't find out, don't know, care to know, have the time to research, or are expert enough to understand the ramifi…

> However, they do understand price!!! So you end up getting cheap stuff that everyone chooses because they don't understand how they lower their future risk or save money over the long run with a more immediately expensive option.

I think people generally do understand that. What they can't do is tell which of the more expensive options is actually of higher quality and which just has higher margins. That requires expert knowledge and we can't each be an expert in everything.

In other cases it can also actually be better to get the cheaper crap option. E.g. if you are not sure if something will actually work for you the best option is no longer just the one with the lowest cost/lifetime.

Re: Slop Terrifies Me

#342
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>until something goes significantly wrong Data breaches are so common they don't even register any more, and people share far more personal information now (willingly or not) than they used to. Remember when the common advice was "don't use your real name online"? Now every service demands your phone number to register, and those temporary email services (like 10minutemail) rarely work any more, in my experience. Dow…

> Now every service demands your phone number to register That appeared as a defense against people impersonating you, i.e. two factor authentication.

If that was the case then TOTP would be available as an alternative but often enough it isn't even though SMS are less secure and more costly to implement.

Re: Slop Terrifies Me

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, wealth inequality has gotten so out of hand that people are forced to buy the cheaper products. It's the age old paradigm of buying a pair of shoes/boots, the poor man keeps buying $20 shoes/boots that wear out in a year or two. The wealthy man looks perplexed and states, "this is why they are poor, they don't understand investing in a quality pair of shoes/boots... For a measly $100 they could buy a pair of shoe…

> wealth inequality has gotten so out of hand that people are forced to buy the cheaper products. Other people having more money does not result in higher prices for the rest, i.e. it does not cause inflation. For example, when I was a boy steak was a rare luxury. Today, a steak dinner costs less than a TV dinner or a bag of Doritos.

You don't think what other market participants can afford to pay matters when you are competing for the same finite source of labour?

Re: Slop Terrifies Me

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The singularity is a specific belief that we will achieve AGI That is one version of it, but not the only one. " John von Neumann is the first person known to have discussed a "singularity" in technological progress.[14][15] Stanislaw Ulam reported in 1958 that an earlier discussion with von Neumann "centered on the accelerating progress of technology and changes in human life, which gives the appearance of approa…

The version I described is the only one I've ever heard anyone else referring to. Just because you can find someone referring to something else as a "technological singularity" doesn't mean it's reasonable to say that must, or even could , have been the definition the person I was replying to was using. ...And I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone to agree with you that "we founded companies" somehow satisfies…

I wouldn't say that founding companies satisfies the conditions of the Singularity, the relevance there is that companies are superhuman and sociopathic, therefore the dream of superintelligences to be empathic, cooperative, and aligned with human interests doesn't seem likely.

> The version I described is the only one I've ever heard anyone else referring to.

In 2008 the IEEE magazine Spectrum did a series on the Singularity and one article [0] says "Like paradise, technological singularity comes in many versions, but most involve bionic brain boosting." Another article had this "Who's Who"[1] cheat-sheet of famous Singularity discussers for and against; one of the columns is "Kind of Singularity", and there's more than one kind. Kevin Kelly has "singularities are pervasive changes in the state of the world that are often recognizable only in retrospect. As a result, the singularity is always near". Bill Joy was a more general "computer science, biotech and nanotechnology event horizon". Marvin Minsky had mind uploading as well as machine intelligence.

Vernor Vinge named 'The Singularity' in 1983 and popularised the ida, and here are talk slides from him in 2005 after he had twenty years of thinking about it[2]:

    Why call this transition the "Technological Singularity"?

    By analogy with the use of "singularity" in Math
        A place where some regularity property is lost
        Not necessarily a place where anything becomes infinite 
    By analogy with the use of "singularity" in Physics
        A place where the rules profoundly change
        What comes beyond is intrinsically less knowable/predictable than before 
    The apocalyptic endpoint of radical optimism :-) 
and

    Singularity futures
    Possible paths to the Singularity

    What if: AI (Artificial intelligence) research succeeds?
        I.J. Good, "Speculations Concerning the First Ultraintelligent Machine"
        Hannes Alfv�n, The End of Man? 
    What if: The internet itself attains unquestioned life and intelligence?
        Gregory Stock, Metaman
        Bruce Sterling, "Maneki Neko" 
    What if: Fine-grained distributed systems are aggressively successful?
        Karl Schroeder, Ventus
        Vernor Vinge, "Fast Times at Fairmont High" 
    What if: IA (Intelligence Amplification) occurs
        As the radical endpoint of Human/computer interface research?
            Poul Anderson, "Kings Who Die"
            Vernor Vinge, "Bookworm, Run!" 
        As the outcome of bioscience research?
            Vernor Vinge, "Fast Times at Fairmont High"
            Vernor Vinge, "Win a Nobel Prize!" 

A place where the rules profoundly change because of bioscience research, human/computer cyborging, or distributed systems emergent complexity, is compatible with Vingean Singularity ideas, or at least used to be before the current LLM/AGI hype cycle.

The 'attractor at the end of history' is from Terence McKenna: "[he] saw the universe, in relation to novelty theory, as having a teleological attractor at the end of time, which increases interconnectedness and would eventually reach a singularity of infinite complexity. ... The universe is not being pushed from behind. The universe is being pulled from the future toward a goal ... our ever-accelerating speed through the phenomenal world of connectivity and novelty is based on the fact that we are now very, very close to the attractor."[3]

> "doesn't mean it's reasonable to say that must, or even could, have been the definition the person I was replying to was using."

Okay, but your "LLMs are not a path to AGI and tech bros are dumb" doesn't lead to anything interesting, it's just a mic-drop end of discussion.

[0] https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-consciousness-conundrum

[1] https://spectrum.ieee.org/who-is-who-in-the-singularity

[2] https://edoras.sdsu.edu/~vinge/misc/ac2005/

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terence_McKenna#Novelty_theory...

Re: Slop Terrifies Me

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The version I described is the only one I've ever heard anyone else referring to. Just because you can find someone referring to something else as a "technological singularity" doesn't mean it's reasonable to say that must, or even could , have been the definition the person I was replying to was using. ...And I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone to agree with you that "we founded companies" somehow satisfies…

I wouldn't say that founding companies satisfies the conditions of the Singularity, the relevance there is that companies are superhuman and sociopathic, therefore the dream of superintelligences to be empathic, cooperative, and aligned with human interests doesn't seem likely. > The version I described is the only one I've ever heard anyone else referring to. In 2008 the IEEE magazine Spectrum did a series on the Si…

Not everything is worthy of discussion.

"The earth is flat" is one of those things.

"The singularity is happening" is one of those things.

"LLMs are AGI" is yet another.

They've already been discussed to death. The only reason to discuss them now is if you are one of the people who is absolutely rejecting reality because you are bound and determined to believe something that is not true.

Re: Slop Terrifies Me

#346
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s completely wrong. There was barely any progress in previous millennia. There was even economic Nobel prize for showing why!

The GDP per capita of the world has been slowly increasing for several millenia. Same for the advancements in core technology. The industrial revolution increased the pace, but it was already there, not flat or randomly flunctuating (think ancient hominids versus early agriculture vs bronge age, vs ancient Babylon and Assyrian empires, vs later Greece, and Persia, later Rome, later Renaissance and so on). Post 1970s…

If you got a random cancer in 1970, your chances of survival would be only somewhat better than during the Roman Empire, so slightly better than zero, but not very much so. Even Hodgkin's lymphoma, nowadays a very manageable disease, was reliably deadly.

In 2026, unless you are really lucky your chances of being treated into remission are much better. That is a meaningful improvement.

Medical science made a HUGE progress in the last 50 years alone. The oldest IVF baby is not even fifty yet.

Re: Slop Terrifies Me

#347
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the singularity is happening [Citation needed] No LLM is yet being used effectively to improve LLM output in exponential ways. Personally, I'm skeptical that such a thing is possible. LLMs aren't AGI, and aren't a path to AGI. The Singularity is the Rapture for techbros.

In my opinion, LLMs provide one piece of AGI. The only intelligence I’ve directly experienced is my own. I don’t consciously plan what I’m saying (or writing right now). Instead, a subconscious process assembles the words to support my stream of consciousness. I think that LLMs are very similar, if not identical. Stream of thought is accomplishing something superficially similar to consciousness, but without the abil…

So, I was downvoted twice, yet neither of you doubtless brilliant individuals bothered to refute my points.

I’ll emphasize my main point further, LLMs have no ability to innovate much beyond the vast data they’ve scraped. They’re almost entirely derivative.

They are a definite improvement over traditional search engines though!

Re: Slop Terrifies Me

#348
post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the externalized costs that bite society in the end. The short life boots are great for everyone (boot makers, suppliers) except the end user. A slightly higher quality boot could reduce their expenditure (monetary and time) and collectively allow society to devote the time and resources saved to higher goals. However the wants of the few outweigh the needs of the many.

> The short life boots are great for everyone (boot makers, suppliers) except the end user. And the environment, which now gets polluted with discarded short life boots, and all the waste byproducts required for their production/transportation And the social fabric inevitably changes for one reflecting the priorities of a world of cheap disposable boots made far away

Also good for the environmental cleanup companies and waste management ones (/s)

Re: Slop Terrifies Me

#349
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haven’t followed the recent history of Eddie Bauer, but seems they’ve sullied their brand for a while. Sam’s Club has been selling Eddie Bauer stuff for years. I don’t think a $37 pair of Eddie Bauer hiking boots are going to be quality.

The more or less inevitable trend of "outdoor stores/brands" is to become increasingly sort of "outdoorsy casual" stores of some sort with--maybe--some camping/hiking gear at some level.

For boots, at least, there's an easy solution: buy the same stuff that the military gets (there are many options there). It might not be the best, but at least there are known standards other than minimum price that apply.

I have a pair of Belleville "hot weather mountain hybrid boots" (TR550) that I got back in 2014, heavily used, still in one piece.

Re: Slop Terrifies Me

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most users just absolutely do not know about, care about, or worry about security, privacy, maintainability, robustness, or a host of other things. That is a problem that needs to be fixed in those users, not something we should take advantage of as an excuse for releasing shoddy work. > For some reason this is continually terrifying and shocking to many. For many reasons. It means that a good product can be outcom…

> > Most users just absolutely do not know about, care about, or worry about security, privacy, maintainability, robustness, or a host of other things. > That is a problem that needs to be fixed in those users, not something we should take advantage of as an excuse for releasing shoddy work. Ok. Tech folks have been trying to educate users and get them to make better decisions (in the viewpoint of those tech folks) f…

>* I'm not sure what "the way of AAA games" means.*

The rush to get things out NowNowNowNowNOWNOWNOW has resulted in massive crunches at the end (or even from the very start) or many big projects, and an apparent “sod it, it'll do, we can patch it later” attitude. Over the last decade or more this problem has become worse, with only a few exceptions to the rule.

With “vibe coding” and “vibe designing” taking more load, I expect that “sod it, it'll do, we can patch it later” will become more common everywhere¹, and that is among those that do have an understanding of the potential security and stability issues that things going out without sufficient review can cause.

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[1] Once management are convinced LLM tools will increase throughput by, say, 50% in ideal cases, they'll expect output to increase by 50+% in all cases, and like the gaming industry “if you can't put the hours in, someone else will” when problems in LLM output cause delays or production issues, is likely to become a key driver, more so than it might be already.

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