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Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

blog.ncase.me

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Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's usually pretty hard to get to toxic levels though, most people that don't live in a particularly sunny climate won't get anywhere near there on 5000 IU/day. Just test your blood levels before you start and then after 3 months or so. It's quick and cheap, and the only way to know whether the dose is right.

> It's pretty hard to get to toxic levels though, most people that don't live in a particularly sunny climate won't get anywhere near there on 5000 IU/day. No, that’s literally what I was doing when I reached the excessive range: 5000 IU/day in winter with an indoor job. This commonly repeated idea that everyone is deficient and you can’t overdose on 5000 IU/day is wrong. > Just test your blood levels before you star…

> No, that’s literally what I was doing when I reached the excessive range:

That doesn't make it easy for most people. In my case it was barely enough to move the needle, but that's not how it will be for most people either.

> you can’t overdose on 5000 IU/day is wrong

Of course you can (though it would usually have to be really prolonged to actually cause you troubles, and even then it's mostly due to calcium rather than vit D itself). The vast majority of people won't, but you don't know whether you're in that group or not until you test yourself.

> Literally what I did.

That's good, but my post obviously used plural "you" as a general advice.

(BTW. There's no evidence of toxicity below blood level of 150 ng/ml, but there are many guidelines that consider levels way below that, such as 50 ng/ml, as "too high" already)

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#342
post #4

Please do not take 5000mg/day of Vitamin D. The author confuses IU and mg which is very dangerous.

Only recently again I read in the newspaper, that most products are overdosed. There is a typical number that the vitamin D products usually show, and in the article it said, that only up to 800 IU is safe, and everything above is an overdose. There are many products out there with 2000 UI or maybe even more. Beware. EDIT: Wow, the HN-local doctors at it again. Imagine getting downvoted for sharing information from n…

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Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#343
post #2

I found this to be the case. Tried Sertraline for a while, gave me headaches and made me feel sick. Then as part of a new gym plan, started taking Omega 3+VitD daily, and I just felt a sense of calm and peace after a few weeks. The massive uptick in exercise probably also helped. I also felt quite an extreme uptick because I was a vegan for 10 years, and found out I had basically zero Omega 3 in my blood. I suspect o…

All my nutrient numbers improved when I became vegan because nearly every one in the US/UK is deficient in VitD, Omegas and B12. Fortunately today’s vegan communities are much more aware of this so I started taking these supplements right up front and all my blood markers improved dramatically since when I consumed meat/dairy. It’s annoying to hear some push back against this when it’s as simple as taking relatively…

My cholesterol improved massively, but over time, a few, such as Omega 3 suffered. But those were ultimately my own fault, wasn't managing it properly. So, I'm absolutely not suggesting there's an issue with veganism, this isn't really why I fell out of it. So I do want to stress I wasn't suggesting people should steer clear of Veganism, just something to be mindful of. Oh, and my cholesterol immediately shot back up again when I stopped being a vegan. So, swings and roundabouts with every diet/lifestyle, I guess!

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#344
Vitamin D toxicity is absolutely real, causes hypercalcemia, and can occur even at the 4,000 IU dose. I would really recommend you be getting regular bloodwork done if you go beyond that. Here’s a fun podcast on a case study. https://www.barbellmedicine.com/podcast/episodes/episode-381...

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#345
post #12
post #2

I found this to be the case. Tried Sertraline for a while, gave me headaches and made me feel sick. Then as part of a new gym plan, started taking Omega 3+VitD daily, and I just felt a sense of calm and peace after a few weeks. The massive uptick in exercise probably also helped. I also felt quite an extreme uptick because I was a vegan for 10 years, and found out I had basically zero Omega 3 in my blood. I suspect o…

Omega 3 comes from algae, which might be okay for some vegans.

Yeah I took that for a while, and did slightly improve things. Only problem I had at the time was those were super expensive in the UK. Maybe that's changed now

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#346

The first thing I would do in case of depression is to make sure that the patient's energy levels are good and that mitochondria and other energy-related biochem phenomena work as expected. I know first-hand that low energy-levels and lacking energy production mechanically lead to depression. Also, look at how people (children also) experience the world and their relationships and their stresses when they are tired (…

Thank you for the comment. This is not in my area of expertise, so I hope you can clarify - how does one test that "mitochondria and other energy-related biochem phenomena work as expected"?

Second the question

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#347
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hate on antidepressants is not because they're not effective, but rather that they're abused by psychiatrists. Ideally, a professional will prescribe them as a necessary helper to becoming (more) mentally healthy whilst tackling the root cause. Most of the time however, it's more of a "here, take these indefinitely". It's like if we took sleeping pills every time we had trouble sleeping. Having said that, I just…

Agree. But sometimes there is no "root cause", the brain is still a mystery. If you had been depressed even when you knew there was nothing to worry about, you would see it differently, because then you deduce that the black cloud is produced within. Chemistry trumps psychology. Good enough chemistry enables cognitive treatments. But to fix the wrong chemistry you need chemistry.

The parent commenter describes seasonal Winter depression. If the problem was brain chemistry, wouldn't it be with them from birth until treatment? Who has Seasonal Type 1 Diabetes, or Seasonal Dwarfism, or Seasonal Missing-an-Eye-From-Birth? Depression generally isn't something children have from birth, it's something adults get temporarily.

A few HN submissions recently are in the style "thinking about doing the thing is not doing the thing. Planning the thing is not doing the thing. . Only doing the thing is doing the thing". Comparing a brain to a large software project with bugs hiding in it, in that vein giving the computer 11 hours of 'sleep' each night is not debugging the code; overclocking or undervolting the CPU is not debugging the code; installing the latest updates and patches is not debugging the code. 'knowing there is nothing to worry about' is not debugging the code. Only debugging the code is debugging the code. Reading a badly explained idea on an internet comment and dismissing it with a mocking "thanks I'm cured" isn't debugging the code. Saying "I've tried everything" isn't debugging the code.

A more specific example, if you are going on a rollercoaster and you are experiencing physical and mental symptoms of worry - nervous, anxious, angry at the person pushing you to ride, twitching and trying to back away, eyes looking around searching for an exit, coming up with excuses to do something else instead, nervous shaking, dread tightness in the chest, affected breathing, perspiring, gritted teeth, etc. etc. then washing over all that with "I know there is nothing to worry about so this must be a problem of brain chemistry" seems a clearly incorrect conclusion.

Such a person clearly has a worry. Quite likely one that's out of proportion (e.g. "rollercoasters kill thousands of people every day!"). Possibly one that's completely incorrect (e.g. "going more than 10mph makes people's insides fall out!"). Quite likely a less clear and less obvious one - which could be anything, e.g. they saw a documentary about a rollercoaster which behaded a child and that's their only thought about rollercoasters; they saw a show about fighter pilots pulling high-G maneouvres and passing out and think that will happen to them on a big rollercoaster; they see the rollercoaster track and support flexing and don't understand that a some flexibility doesn't mean weakness; they went to a theme park as a child and older children bullied them into riding a scary ride and they wet themselves and figuratively died of shame and buried the memory; they were pushed into learning to drive at 15 by their wicked stepfather and this is pattern matching to the same kind of experience; etc. etc.

Saying "there is nothing to worry about, rollercoasters are safe enough and you know it, so your brain chemistry must be broken" isn't debugging the problem. It isn't even explaining the problem. Why would broken brain chemistry particularly affect them at a theme park, or in Winter, and not the rest of the time? How was this broken chemistry identified and measured and quantified and that hypothesis proven?

Likewise, just because the parent poster has tried sleeping and exercising and taking Vitamin D, doesn't address that humans evolved in Africa, connected to oceans and trees and tribal living, and not commuting to a fluourescent lit beige box filled with strangers writing JavaScript while being bombarded with news items about wars and genocides and stories of how everyone else is having a wonderful Christmas, earning more money than you, with a cost of living crises always on their mind, etc.

> "Good enough chemistry enables cognitive treatments."

Drugs can force people to carry on with a life that's making them miserable when they have no other available options to find out why and fix it. That isn't evidence that "there is no root cause"(!). Any more than turning it off and on again can let you get on with your job, but that doesn't show there's no root cause for a program locking up.

> "then you deduce that the black cloud is produced within."

And you have a lifetime of your prior experiences affecting your mood. When you remember that your aunt hit you when you swore at the dinner table, or you saw someone slip on ice and fall over and break their wrist, or watever, every life learning experience is "the mood is produced within".

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#348
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hate on antidepressants is not because they're not effective, but rather that they're abused by psychiatrists. Ideally, a professional will prescribe them as a necessary helper to becoming (more) mentally healthy whilst tackling the root cause. Most of the time however, it's more of a "here, take these indefinitely". It's like if we took sleeping pills every time we had trouble sleeping. Having said that, I just…

I suffer from severe crippling OCD and anxiety. Years of therapy and psychoanalysis have failed to find any cause, and, if anything, made it worse. The best explanation has been it's probably because I'm autistic, and these things tend to happen to autistics. Luckily, sertraline was an almost instant cure. I can come off it for periods, but it tends to reoccur after a while. So, it does mean I have to take a drug ind…

Bit off-topic, but melatonin taken at right doses appears to work very well. (commonly prescribed doses are 10-30x too much and likely cause tolerance). See the post https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-th...

Re: Vitamin D and Omega-3 have a larger effect on depression than antidepressants

#349
post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is nothing special about tea that breaks the rules of caffeine. There's definitely something special, just poorly studied: typical "how much caffeine is in X?" tables show tea having caffeine levels similar to coffee, but I never feel the same effects. > Caffeine pills generally have really high dosages, FYI. I use 200 mg tablets split into quarters for doses of 50–100 mg. Yet, they produce a much milder curv…

> typical "how much caffeine is in X?" tables show tea having caffeine levels similar to coffee, I have never seen a caffeine comparison table that shows tea and coffee at the same level. It’s common knowledge that typical coffee brews are in the range of 2-5X higher in caffeine content than typical tea brews. Tea is widely used as a lower caffeine alternative to coffee.

Quick search shows various infographics: green tea at 20–35 mg, black tea at 45–50 mg, espresso at 45–75 mg, and instant at 60-80 mg on average. The day I feel anything close from a cup of black tea to what I get from an instant coffee or a quarter of a pure caffeine pill, I might start trusting those numbers, but for now I see them as nonsense that tries to present as science.
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