Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

I'm returning my Framework 16

yorickpeterse.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

341–350 of 621 posts

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#341

Post by wiz21c »

Maybe the FrameWork company wants to build something out of the clutches of proprietary software and big corp hardware. And that's fine. Since they don't have the volumes to make enough money they may have to charge more per laptop, which is fine.

But if they want to have me as a customer on these core values (which I'm pretty much aligned with), then they need an additional core value: they need to convince me their higher price is justified. So I want transparency on the way they use my money (and the one of their other customers).

Without that, I'm left wondering if it is not some "green washing".

IOW I'm sure Apple is expensive because it's luxury, I'm sure other laptops are not expensive because they're cheap/sold by millions. But FrameWork, I don't know why their expensive. And repairability doesn't count, design for repairability doesn't make things inherently more expensive I guess.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#342

Post by ragall »

kelnos wrote: post #130
comte7092 wrote: post #8

I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn. Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only…

I'm torn on your take, because on one hand I agree wholeheartedly (I own a Framework 13, and considered the repairability to be a part of the price, and a little added bulk to be a trade off I was comfortable with), but on the other, I think there's just some entirely-reasonable human psychology at work here that expects a €2k laptop to be premium in fit, finish, and polish. But I do think Framework still has a ways…

High-end ThinkPads were always very repairable (even if not upgradable wrt. motherboard). The P50 I bought 10 years ago came with 4 RAM slots (and ECC capable), 3 disk slots, removable battery and way more ports than a Framework.

It really baffles me how people are willing to put up with the flimsiness of the Framework. Maybe they only move it from the desk to a sofa ? There are enough reports of Framework laptops dying after being carried too many times or being dropped. The lack of structural integrity is killing them, and this is all due to the approach to port flexibility.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#343

Post by AnthonyMouse »

Aurornis wrote: post #272
makeitdouble wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hardware has usually advanced far enough That's not what we're experiencing. Screens have seen improvements, but not in a significant way within these 4-6 years. Keyboards haven't improved leaps and bounds. Track pads either. Laptop casings haven't seen innovation either. The only thing that significantly changes is the motherboard, which is not nothing, but replacing it independently makes sense to me. > port modu…

I have a 6 year old high end laptop that I keep as a backup and I disagree about no progress being made on screens. The current screens are very good, especially in high brightness environments. > The only thing that significantly changes is the motherboard, which is not nothing, but replacing it independently makes sense to me. Laptop motherboards aren’t like desktop motherboards where you can define a big outline a…

> If you’re lucky and leave enough extra space then you can design next generation parts to line up neatly with the thermal solution of last gen, then cap it at the limit of whatever last gen was designed for.

The mobile Ryzen 3/5/7/9 processors from the current year have a configurable TDP up to the same max (54W) as the earliest Ryzen "H" processors from 2017. The first generation mobile Core i7 from 2009 had a TDP up to 55W. The mobile Pentium 4 from 2003 had a TDP up to 76W (which appears to be the high water mark). In any given generation there were also lower end models using less power across a power range that seems to be fairly consistent over time.

Why does the thermal solution need to be redesigned if the heat output hasn't materially changed in decades?

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#344

Post by johnnyanmac »

comte7092 wrote: post #8

I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn. Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only…

Yeah, I felt the same way. The upfront cost is larger, but the idea is that 2-3 years down the line you can upgrade (or simply replace) your GPU or even CPU it won't be another 2000 investment down the line.

But of course, weight is a personal thing with a laptop (my Asus is around 2kg and I never felt like I couldn't carry it one handed) and if core things like the screen or speakers really sucks, that's a deal breaker no matter what.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#345

Post by Brian_K_White »

cosmic_cheese wrote: post #182
comte7092 wrote: post #8

I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn. Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only…

The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically anybody. Reliable machines rarely need repairs outside of owner mistreatment, and most people I know who are technically capable enough to care about upgrading generally do it maybe once every 4-6 years, by which point hardware has usually advanced far enough that buying a new laptop is easy t…

"The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically anybody."

That is entirely irrelevant.

The product does what it says on the tin. If you don't value that because "repairability isn't a frequent need" then you don't value that (and the reason doesn't matter).

If you* don't value that, then why did you read the tin, buy the thing, and then complain that it is what it said it was going to be?

That is what's annoying to witness.

I can do all that same math about price and features, yet why don't I have any buyers remourse? Do I not know about Dell and Lenovo and Apple? If the value proposition is innately bad, then why aren't I complaining too? Have I been hypnotized into acting against my own priorities and intentions?

The problem is not with the product or it's price.

* not literally you, sorry for how that sounds

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#346

Post by IshKebab »

_cenw wrote: post #240
IshKebab wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm clearly very misaligned with their politics now Are you? Or is it just that they are capable of working with people who have different political views to them? DHH is clearly right wing but I don't think it's abhorrent to work with right wing people full stop. And yeah I've read the supposedly awful things he's written. I don't agree with them but they aren't that bad. I am centre-left for what it's worth (in t…

I am not fucking around when I say incompatible with my existence. Of course I don't mean getting murdered, but advocating conversion therapy gets pretty close. https://world.hey.com/dhh/bad-therapy-08849dc9 I wouldn't be around if this was policy where I live (Let's put aside that the UK is in fact pretty fucked on that)

See at this point you're boycotting a company for supporting a developer who wrote a favourable book review of someone that has unproven and controversial but absolutely not fringe views about transgender issues that you disagree with.

> I wouldn't be around if this was policy where I live

If what was policy? Higher thresholds for mental health diagnoses?

Cancel culture isn't a good thing, left or right.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#347

Post by TylerE »

mfer wrote: post #160

I bought an early framework 13. It cost a little more. I’ve since upgraded the main board to get a faster/newer experience. The overall cost has been less than 2 laptops. Some of this depends if you’re playing the long game

On the other hand, if you'd bought two laptops... you'd have another laptop.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#348

Post by makeitdouble »

pdimitar wrote: post #292
makeitdouble wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hardware has usually advanced far enough That's not what we're experiencing. Screens have seen improvements, but not in a significant way within these 4-6 years. Keyboards haven't improved leaps and bounds. Track pads either. Laptop casings haven't seen innovation either. The only thing that significantly changes is the motherboard, which is not nothing, but replacing it independently makes sense to me. > port modu…

> That's one of the best idea they have! You might have bought a laptop with 4 USB ports 5 years ago, only to realize you'd be so much happier with two USB-A. Or you realize you never ever use the SD Card slot. Well, you'd fix that easily on a Framework, not on any other laptop. With all due respect -- meh. I have a fairly old-ish laptop that I am not bothered to upgrade because a Ryzen 5500U is super capable to this…

> keyboard and a mouse

That's the part that's hitting me the most.

I have two dongles for the wireless connectivity of both, and the choice is between sticking both in a dock and bring the same huge dock every single place I go, or move them from dock to dock as needed.

Having two USB-A would mean I stick them on the machine itself and never think about it anymore. Then if they could completely disappear inside the port extensions it would be a dream.

TBH I wouldn't be using the Framework as my primary work laptop either way, use cases are very limited and I already have the power and modularity needed with the Z13, but as a personal laptop for way wider use cases it ticks all the right boxes. If only it shipped outside of US and EU.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#349

Post by warkdarrior »

Brian_K_White wrote: post #345
cosmic_cheese wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically anybody. Reliable machines rarely need repairs outside of owner mistreatment, and most people I know who are technically capable enough to care about upgrading generally do it maybe once every 4-6 years, by which point hardware has usually advanced far enough that buying a new laptop is easy t…

"The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically anybody." That is entirely irrelevant. The product does what it says on the tin. If you don't value that because "repairability isn't a frequent need" then you don't value that (and the reason doesn't matter). If you* don't value that, then why did you read the tin, buy the thing, and then co…

> If you* don't value that, then why did you read the tin, buy the thing, and then complain that it is what it said it was going to be?

Because the tin didn't say "repairable and upgradable and poor battery life and shaky case". It only mentioned the benefits but not the drawbacks.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#350

Post by Joeri »

Spooky23 wrote: post #308
makeitdouble wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hardware has usually advanced far enough That's not what we're experiencing. Screens have seen improvements, but not in a significant way within these 4-6 years. Keyboards haven't improved leaps and bounds. Track pads either. Laptop casings haven't seen innovation either. The only thing that significantly changes is the motherboard, which is not nothing, but replacing it independently makes sense to me. > port modu…

Screens are dramatically better than a few years ago and have been advancing if you care about and shop for the feature. Trackpads are slowly sucking less. Most people only see this in MacBook Pros, but the other manufacturers have excellent screens that are often hidden behind customization options and complex models/branding. I have a framework and love it, but it’s a computer made for a specific purpose that doesn…

I have to disagree on trackpads sucking less. This year I walked into a big box electronics store and tried the screen, keyboard and trackpad on every laptop they had on display.

Trackpads were universally abysmal, with the sole exception of the macbooks. They all had the frustrating diveboard design, every single one at every price point from every manufacturer. I’m sure you can buy laptops with decent trackpads online, but they had none in the store, macbooks excepted.

Keyboards were all over the place, but I notice that even some premium models are now carrying generic low end keyboard parts with weak travel, lack of key separation, num lock mashed into the backspace, and awkward arrow key layout. If anything I think keyboards are getting worse.

Screens are the one place where I’ll say things have improved noticeably, especially colors and black levels, although getting over 200 ppi and 500 nits is still a rare treat, and that is my bar for a compromiseless display.

Post reply on HN