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Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

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Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#341

Post by ericmay »

somenameforme wrote: post #306
ericmay wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's start with this question: > For instance what do you think the chances of a healthy 20 year old male with 0 comorbidities of dying from COVID are? Much more likely than dying from the vaccine. Also, and this is very important, at the time the vaccine was developed and released to the general public it was even more unknown what the fatality truly would be. We weren't totally sure as a species how the virus migh…

But don't you see that you're immediately resorting to the somewhat misleading arguments that I already preempted? You're engaging in the typical fallacy of vaccine OR covid. When in reality it was clear rather early on that the vaccines were not particularly effective at preventing people from getting COVID, meaning you need to look at getting the vaccine and covid, or covid alone. And yes the risks are very real. V…

No, that's a straw man you made up. You very well could not have gotten COVID-19. I didn't get it for about 4 years. Well, at least a symptomatic version. But the chances of getting it were quite high, and you are still neglecting the timeframe in which decisions would have been made based on preliminary data. In other words, it wasn't get vaccine or get COVID-19. It was get the vaccine and most likely prevent getting a very severe bout of COVID-19 if you did in fact get COVID, which the vast majority of Americans did get, or something similar, including those in the age range you specified. Frankly, it seems to me that just not being sick was well worth the risk.

I'm not going to pull a number out of my hat here but I bet the number of people who were in the 19-20 year old range who died from suicide or something after losing their job from getting sick from COVID-19 and not having sick days to take is higher than the number of folks who died from the vaccine.

Even if it turned out that COVID-19 wasn't a big deal for 19/20 year olds and taking the vaccine might cause negative effects, it still doesn't mean that getting the vaccine at the time wasn't the best risk-based decision.

All in all though even if we took at face value your 1:10,000 number that still would be tangential to my original post because you're focusing on one small segment of the population and as folks get older (or younger) their risk profile changes.

Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#342

Post by trts »

blackqueeriroh wrote: post #312
trts wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

most of the critics of this particular vaccine are the ones that took it. either the people who got covid anyway or were injured by it. it was incredibly destructive for trust in the medical establishment to oversell / mandate it and market aggressively as "safe and effective". while most vaccine risks are in the 10s per 100k or 1M, nearly everybody knows somebody else who had an adverse reaction to one of the covid…

“nearly everybody knows somebody else who had an adverse reaction to one of the covid shots.” This is a straight up lie - because “adverse reaction” does not mean “I felt achy for a couple days and maybe had a little fever,” it’s actually a VERY specific term. But you are trying to peddle falsehoods. Most people know nobody who “had an adverse reaction to one of the covid shots”

respectfully it is not a lie, and more than a half a dozen people I know personally lost function of their hands, legs, were hospitalized with myocarditis, had local paralysis/palsy. I personally lost the use of my hand for two months and it took two more years to recover.

and when people like me say things like this, inevitably someone like you comes along to tell them they are dangerous for saying it out loud. In fact, the government was actively censoring people from being able to express this on social media.

Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#343

Post by sdo72 »

blackqueeriroh wrote: post #315
sdo72 wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all started getting weird symptoms after the vaccines, not after having covid, you got it backward. I am not quick to blame the vaccine. If you take the vaccine and immediately after you start develop symptoms, then the chances that the vaccine are doing something strange to the body are very likely, not the virus infection. And these don't get diagnosed with Covid or having Covid symptoms before, it must be somet…

Are you aware that to this day, 30% of all Covid cases are asymptomatic, aka you CANNOT tell that you have had it? Until, of course, you start to have all of the exact things you’re sharing right now.

so you think that we suddenly have symptoms after the vaccines because of covid infection and the real symptoms started appearing instead of asymptomatic symptoms .

Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#344

Post by somenameforme »

ericmay wrote: post #341
somenameforme wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But don't you see that you're immediately resorting to the somewhat misleading arguments that I already preempted? You're engaging in the typical fallacy of vaccine OR covid. When in reality it was clear rather early on that the vaccines were not particularly effective at preventing people from getting COVID, meaning you need to look at getting the vaccine and covid, or covid alone. And yes the risks are very real. V…

No, that's a straw man you made up. You very well could not have gotten COVID-19. I didn't get it for about 4 years. Well, at least a symptomatic version. But the chances of getting it were quite high, and you are still neglecting the timeframe in which decisions would have been made based on preliminary data. In other words, it wasn't get vaccine or get COVID-19. It was get the vaccine and most likely prevent gettin…

What's a straw man? Following the vaccines, vaccinated people were still getting COVID and indeed dying of COVID. Early on that was disproportionately the elderly as they were who the vaccines were rolled out to first, but nonetheless it was clear that the shots were much more akin to flu shots than e.g. smallpox or polio type vaccines. This is what led to those silly things like the CDC deciding to redefine vaccine on their website to shift vaccination language away from immunity and towards a poorly define "protection" instead.

And the 1:10,000 is not my number. It is the repeatedly verified rates of significant myocarditis and pericarditis, and it's much lower once you filter it down to just younger males since the 1:10000 is for both male and female across a relatively wide age range. It's not tangential, because the entire point of our discussion is that there were rather large groups of people for whom vaccination was, at the bare minimum, an extremely debatable decision.

Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#345

Post by oldgradstudent »

pygy_ wrote: post #300
pygy_ wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vaccinnated group was 1 year older on average, and had mode cardiovascular risk factors. Covid has long term health consequences, and these are proportional to the severity of the acute infection. People who died of a stroke of a heart infarction 6 months down the line were not counted as "covid death", even though covid is known to increase their incidence in the next year.

Another factor that may play a role: the people who chose not to take the vaccine may be prone to taking bad decisions more broadly, leading to a higher mortality rate.

If true, that means the groups are different in many other aspects other than the vaccine.

The study does not control for the differences. No causality can be inferred.

Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#346

Post by tzs »

andreygrehov wrote: post #297
tzs wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What possible benefits does RFK Jr. get from dramatically restricting a vaccine using data he knows is meaningless and will be shredded in 24 hours by every fact-checker and cardiologist on HN/Twitter/younameit? That's never bothered him before. Vaccines cause autism. WiFi causes DNA changes and opens up the blood-brain barrier allowing toxins into the brain. Chemtrails. HIV is not a major cause of AIDS, with lifes…

You just listed a bunch of old-school RFK claims to dismiss him entirely. That's exactly how people used to shut down anyone questioning: - Vioxx - lab leak - opioids - PFAS ...all “crazy conspiracy theories” until proven true. I'm not saying vaccines cause autism (the evidence still doesn't). But stay skeptical, even of your own side. That's how science actually moves forward.

The point is that you were arguing the RFK Jr would not make claims unless they were supported by the evidence. The examples given show that he will in fact make such claims.

Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#347

Post by ceejayoz »

andreygrehov wrote: post #340
ceejayoz wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sleight of hand is pretending ten kids dying of a rare vaccine side effect is at all surprising when we gave it to billions of people. Eating pretzels has a more dangerous safety profile than that. People choke to death.

Is there a strong evidence that kids need it in the first place? A stricter protocol does not dismiss the kids, right?

> Is there a strong evidence that kids need it in the first place?

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/fda-officials-have-said...

"U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention data shows that since the start of the pandemic, more than 2,000 children age 18 and younger in the U.S. have died from COVID-19. Nearly 700, or about 33%, were less than 1 year old."

Given the effectiveness at preventing death, I'll happily trade 2,000 COVID deaths for 10 myocarditis deaths.

Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#348

Post by ceejayoz »

misiti3780 wrote: post #264
ceejayoz wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guy who says HIV is caused by poppers?

i was referring to this https://youtu.be/P3nXJB5PoBM?t=39

I understand that. I'm wondering why you'd find such a shitty source even the slightest bit compelling.

Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#349

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

somenameforme wrote: post #344
ericmay wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's a straw man you made up. You very well could not have gotten COVID-19. I didn't get it for about 4 years. Well, at least a symptomatic version. But the chances of getting it were quite high, and you are still neglecting the timeframe in which decisions would have been made based on preliminary data. In other words, it wasn't get vaccine or get COVID-19. It was get the vaccine and most likely prevent gettin…

What's a straw man? Following the vaccines, vaccinated people were still getting COVID and indeed dying of COVID. Early on that was disproportionately the elderly as they were who the vaccines were rolled out to first, but nonetheless it was clear that the shots were much more akin to flu shots than e.g. smallpox or polio type vaccines. This is what led to those silly things like the CDC deciding to redefine vaccine…

> the CDC deciding to redefine vaccine

A ridiculous conspiratorial talking point.

> rates of significant myocarditis after vaccination

Absolute straw man, deceptive and one-sided.

> Young people’s risk of developing myocarditis is higher and longer lasting after covid-19 infection than after vaccination against it, the largest study of its kind suggests.

https://www.bmj.com/content/391/bmj.r2330

Re: Covid-19 mRNA Vaccination and 4-Year All-Cause Mortality

#350

Post by andreygrehov »

ceejayoz wrote: post #347
andreygrehov wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a strong evidence that kids need it in the first place? A stricter protocol does not dismiss the kids, right?

> Is there a strong evidence that kids need it in the first place? https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/fda-officials-have-said... "U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention data shows that since the start of the pandemic, more than 2,000 children age 18 and younger in the U.S. have died from COVID-19. Nearly 700, or about 33%, were less than 1 year old." Given the effectiveness at preventing death, I'll happil…

Once again, stricter protocols don't dismiss anyone, they adapt to 2025 realities: near-zero child covid deaths monthly vs. rare vax risks. Under the new FDA framework, kids aren't denied shots; they just require a doctor's consult for personalized recs. Your framing sounds like full denial, which is false and amps up the fear.
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