Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

reclaimthenet.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

341–350 of 449 posts

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#341

Post by 4gotunameagain »

GuB-42 wrote: post #86
sph wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Palantir and Thorn lobbyists So, US interests? Which means the NSA?

No need to look that far. Palantir sells software for analyzing data, like Excel but on a large scale. If "Chat Control" passes, they will need software to analyze the data they collect, which is exactly what Palantir sells. It is just business. I don't know about Thorn but it looks like the same: they sell software that may be of use for implementing "Chat Control".

I wish I were religious so I could believe that there is a special place in hell for those who do such societal damage for profit.

But it don't look like it.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#342

Post by petcat »

permo-w wrote: post #337
petcat wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mexico decided to revive slavery and threatend to capture Afroamericans in USA It's a bad example because the power balance doesn't make sense. I think you will have a hard time coming up with any example where USA would be on the receiving end of something like this.

the power balance isn't relevant. the original commenter said that they find it funny that Europeans get upset about Trump pretending he'd take Greenland. honestly the comment just seems like deliberately triggering 4chan-esque fare with little to no value to it. the power balance is completely irrelevant. it's one territory not happy with another power coveting its territory. how bizarre and unexpected

The power balance is relevant because USA can just take it if they want it. People in Europe will be upset but that isn't going to change the outcome. USA has offered to purchase it many times.

I think ultimately this will end up being resolved with USA getting rights to something like 80% of the resource value and Denmark getting 20% in exchange for getting to keep the title.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#343

Post by stackedinserter »

Ray20 wrote: post #330
sph wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to maintain a balance when the State, by definition, has monopoly over violence, and State interests have the propaganda machine of mass-media on their side; the media with their pathetic justification that "we're only reporting the news!" just repeat and perpetuate bullshit rhetoric. The real problem is that the State tends to grow like a cancer. When it gets to a point that it lords over tens or hundreds of mi…

Until someone implements Jim Bell's ideas using encryption algorithms, distributed networks, and the cryptocurrencies, then there will be no government. Perhaps there won't be one anywhere. Perhaps we'll really miss the good old days.

You can't win against state with tech only.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#344

Post by dathinab »

piker wrote: post #6

Even living nearby in the UK it blows my mind how quickly the EU proposes, kills and then revives and passes controversial legislation in such a short timeframe.

As others have mentioned:

1. this wasn't fast, it took ~5 years and most (but not all) of the problematic parts have been removed

2. It also wasn't "fully rejected" or anything in the decision which gained some awareness of hacker news, just one specific draft was rejected, not the proposal as a whole (but IMHO it should have been).

3. it's not passed just approved by the council, which consists of the various head of states elected in their respective countries (i.e. is the easiest part to pass something controversial), but still needs to pass the European parliament (elected through the EU elections)

4. and then it must not be shot down by the ECJ or ECHR, both might shot it down, the ECJ for it being excessive/disproportional, and the ECHR because privacy is accepted as a human right by it (in general, there are exceptions so not 100% guaranteed). Or shut down by the German supreme court (same reason as ECJ and ECHR) which has somewhat of a veto right (or else Germany wouldn't have been able to legally join the EU), idk. if any other countries supreme courts have similar veto rights, but idk. why they shouldn't have)

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#345

Post by gregbot »

Fnoord wrote: post #329
gregbot wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>doesn't mean your actions do not have consequences YES IT DOES THAT IS EXACTLY THE POINT You obviously do not believe in freedom of speech as defined by US law. You are conflating extremely narrow exceptions with broad politically motivated violations of freedom of political speech

The US Constitution. What a beautiful piece of paper, such a nice theory. Yet your current president is circumventing Congress. Your president is bullying states. You don't even have a functional popular vote. Your SCOTUS is dysfunctional. And, this 1st amendment, is that why peaceful protestors got shot by rubber bullets when they were protesting against the war in Iraq? Which, as it turned out, was started for dish…

Thats like asking kim jong un who the freest country is and being proud that he say its north korea

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#346

Post by iso1631 »

RobotToaster wrote: post #118
piker wrote: post #6

Even living nearby in the UK it blows my mind how quickly the EU proposes, kills and then revives and passes controversial legislation in such a short timeframe.

That's generally how the EU works, they forced Ireland to hold another referenda after the first one rejected the Lisbon treaty

Forced - was this an EU navy ship parking off Dublin?

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#347

Post by iamnothere »

ben_w wrote: post #289
DangitBobby wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is possible for unauthorized hardware to exist. People who want to do illegal things to begin with won't mind so much if their methods of communication happen to be illegal.

Irrelevant. 1) Illegal telecoms equipment can be seized 2) Someone doing this on the public Internet would only get away with it if their encrypted packets *never ever* went through a government licensed router. The moment they go through a public router: instantly detected.

You have an absurd level of confidence in government competence. Not even China can pull this off.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#348

Post by zelphirkalt »

squigz wrote: post #106
zelphirkalt wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is of course a process, that does not lend itself to be democratic, because it is way longer than most people's attention span. People don't manage to remember things that happened in politics 4 years ago in their own country. Now they are required to follow up on dozens of shitty proposals, all probably illegal in their own country, and those don't even happen in their own country? That divides the number of pe…

People on average are really not that stupid and are absolutely capable of looking back a few years for context.

Tell me more about that, while here in Germany people again and again vote against their own interest (AfD, CDU, SPD, and all the other corrupt and inept politicians and parties) and the mainstream parties have not managed to improve our situation for some 4-5 election cycles. Tell me more about that, while looking at the US. I am quite sure many other countries can be added to this list.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#349

Post by stackedinserter »

sph wrote: post #311
stackedinserter wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is "Red Queen" concept, constant battle between society and state (Leviathan). State always drives towards despotism and total control, society always drives to anarchy, and when there's balance, then you have Switzerland, otherwise slide towards Somali or Russia. https://news.mit.edu/2019/narrow-corridor-acemoglu-liberty-0...

Hard to maintain a balance when the State, by definition, has monopoly over violence, and State interests have the propaganda machine of mass-media on their side; the media with their pathetic justification that "we're only reporting the news!" just repeat and perpetuate bullshit rhetoric. The real problem is that the State tends to grow like a cancer. When it gets to a point that it lords over tens or hundreds of mi…

At the same time, citizens get more tools and technologies to organize and push back.

Re: EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance

#350

Post by iso1631 »

ekianjo wrote: post #142
GeoAtreides wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what do you mean, a slow bureaucracy is a democratic bureaucracy. the last thing you want is a highly efficient bureaucracy enacting change quickly. This message brought to you by the Bureau of Sabotage

There is nothing democratic about the process. It's all unelected politicians ruling for you

Which ones are unelected - the democratically elected heads of the member state governments? Or the democratically elected members of the EU parliament?

Or the commissioners that are appointed by the democratically elected heads of the member state governments?

Post reply on HN