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France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

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Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#341

Post by pabs3 »

rstuart4133 wrote: post #301
BLKNSLVR wrote: post #9

Is it safe to assume, then, that Google and Apple already have backdoors in their operating systems as likely requested by many governments around the world (not least of which the one from their home country)? Or is GrapheneOS the only one built securely enough to need to be leaned upon? Either way, makes Google and Apple look bad and/or incompetent and GrapheneOS look like some kind of beacon of user protection / p…

> Is it safe to assume, then, that Google and Apple already have backdoors in their operating systems as likely requested by many governments around the world I don't know whether it is safe to assume. But if they are complying with Australian law, specifically the Assistance and Access Bill (2018) [0], then they must write an undetectable backdoor for the Australia government if asked (that's the assistance the bill…

> if your device runs a true open source distro

The situation with Android security updates means that such a distro is either not based on Android (and likely less useful), or there are months-long delays to security updates for the non-GPL components.

Similarly, non-Google versions of Android can't run important apps that require attestation, including the Australian government app myGov.

https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-gu...

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#342

Post by vatsachak »

foldr wrote: post #225
vatsachak wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, you're right. They title it "knife ban" but they list specific "knifes" that you can't carry, such as a sword (lmao at it being considered a knife) I used to own many butterfly knifes in Middle School. Feels weird that you could be arrested for that in London

Who are 'they'? There is no official thing called a 'knife ban', and again, there are no laws about knives specific to London. There aren't really any laws about anything that are specific to London, as there is no corresponding legislative body. Swords aren't considered knives, they are considered (correctly) to be bladed, and thus to fall under the scope of various bits of legislation, like this: https://www.legisl…

https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives

You're right that they say "knife or weapon". So they don't classify a knife as a sword

There is also no London specific governing body

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#343

Post by mikeyouse »

dijit wrote: post #321
mikeyouse wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Durov had long claimed he was in exile from Russia and couldn’t return and that he was a UAE/French citizen. then records leaked that showed 120 border crossings from 2016-2021 and that he still held a Russian passport. One such border crossing was a flight from St Petersburg on June 18, 2020 which happens to be the same day that Telegram was unblocked in Russia… Lots and lots of smoke.. The Kyiv Independent article…

I was hit pretty hard when Russia was trying to block telegram; I don’t buy that it was a coverup. And there is only a single (anonymous) source for that whole article. That said, would be good to rely on no central authority and use Matrix instead; or at least put OTR/Ratchet on top of Telegram with custom clients. TG does not seem hostile to third party clients the same way Whatsapp/Signal are. It would otherwise s…

I think they legitimately blocked Telegram and then Durov made a series of choices to bring it back to Russia.

Basically everything in the KI story has been verified. Durov admitted that he kept his Russian passport, he admitted that he was essentially lying about his Russian exile and regularly and freely traveled there, he hasn’t denied spending the week before Telegram was reinstated in St Petersburg which would be a no-brainer if he wasn’t really there.

As for choice of app — it again depends on your adversary. Telegram’s non-standard and home-brewed protocol has had every crypto expert asking “why? If not to…”

Lookup the name Vladimir Vedeneev and try and figure out why he’s signing Russian contracts as Telegram’s CFO and why his company GlobalNet has bragged about being the first to do DPI on backbone infrastructure while his other company Electrotelecom has FSB contracts for surveillance software.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#344

Post by halJordan »

johnwayne666 wrote: post #296
blueflow wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Le Parisien is not the french state. I doubt you had any interaction with the french authorities at all. You are unable to any legal recourse because none of your rights have been violated (yet).

To be fair, the quote in the second article is from Johanna Brousse who is behind the Durov arrest. > "Mais ça ne nous empêchera pas de poursuivre les éditeurs, si des liens sont découverts avec une organisation criminelle et qu’ils ne coopèrent pas avec la justice." > “But that won't stop us from prosecuting publishers if links to a criminal organization are discovered and they fail to cooperate with the justice sys…

To be even fairer, where in the french legal codes does it say "introduce backdoors!"

I'm all for assuming the worst, but not to the point of putting words in someone's mouth.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#345

Post by mistercheph »

themafia wrote: post #234
mistercheph wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Larger companies are easier to influence than small ones, no intimidation is necessary. Protecting user privacy delivers close to 0 shareholder value, being friendly with nations wins you billions of dollars in contracts, regulatory protection, and friendly courts, it's a win-win for big companies and surveillance states to be friendly with each other.

Larger companies have more to lose if people lost faith in their platform and devices. Monopolies are easy to influence as they don't even have to care about the optics.

By that logic, maybe unsurprisingly, the FANG's of the world have monopolies.

Who believes that their Apple-Google device doesn't phone home to Five Eyes directly or indirectly. Who would care or be surprised if they announced publicly that they did?

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#346

Post by array_key_first »

blueflow wrote: post #330
Hizonner wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only a total idiot would wait to actually be arrested, fined, or even harassed, before doing something about it.

Maybe he is going to get arrested, maybe we are observing an persecution complex.

Given what we know about how most Western nations feel about secure communications, what seems more likely?

The reality is that the west got very comfortable with a world where any and all communication can be trivially wire tapped.

Telephony, messaging, and even the internet - these were not only abused, but abused on such a scale that virtually no data could ever be safe from the eye of the state. Even printed media would leak it's location, etched in microscopic ink.

We, unceramoniously and rapidly, yanked this power out from underneath them. For the first time in a very long time, it is possible to have communication which cannot be surveilled.

Knowing what we know about how governments work, are we shocked that there is push back to this? Frankly, the only reason we aren't seeing more abuse is because the big dogs still permit absolute serveillance. I'm sure at the behest of the state.

Projects like grapheneos and signal represent an existential threat to the current model of citizen serveillance and crime solving. Starving dogs will bite.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#347

Post by [deleted] »

izacus wrote: post #310
0xbadcafebee wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Graphene shouldn't have to reckon with the abuse of government, we should step in and speak up for them. If having a secure device becomes criminal, only the criminals will have secure devices. Law enforcement is being lazy by trying to rely on mass surveillance rather than espionage tactics to catch criminals. Criminals learned long ago how to work around surveillance, so this doesn't really work on them. But it doe…

I don't think quoting American politicians which failed to setup a government preventing Trumpism is going to be very persuasive for European governments... or European people.

[deleted]

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#348

Post by [deleted] »

izacus wrote: post #310
0xbadcafebee wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Graphene shouldn't have to reckon with the abuse of government, we should step in and speak up for them. If having a secure device becomes criminal, only the criminals will have secure devices. Law enforcement is being lazy by trying to rely on mass surveillance rather than espionage tactics to catch criminals. Criminals learned long ago how to work around surveillance, so this doesn't really work on them. But it doe…

I don't think quoting American politicians which failed to setup a government preventing Trumpism is going to be very persuasive for European governments... or European people.

[deleted]

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#349

Post by JumpCrisscross »

themafia wrote: post #223
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> devices should have government-mandated backdoors if and only if you are a public servant This would be an intelligence bonanza. Better: mandatory, encrypted logging. Officials maintain the keys. When they leave office or are subpoenaed, they have the means to grant access. (If they can send and read their messages, they have the keys.) This is how NARA in the U.S. is supposed to work.

They'll just use a private device or off network server. I don't think we're going to "hack" our way into a just society.

> don't think we're going to "hack" our way into a just society

We're not. But within the scope of technical aids to a solution, there are better and worse options.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#350

Post by dmichulke »

lucideer wrote: post #127
konmok wrote: post #71

I think your devices should have government-mandated backdoors if and only if you are a public servant. I don't understand why private citizens are held to higher standards of conduct than politicians and cops.

> if you are a public servant. I don't understand why private citizens are held to higher standards of conduct than politicians and cops. Last time I checked, politicians and cops are private citizens... Wherever you stand on this, I can't understand the justification for this "one rule for thee" position.

I suppose that was irony to highlight they're usually exempt.

Also, they are paid by the people to work for the people, so during the exercise of their functions they could in theory be contractually obliged to use a company phone

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