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IDEs we had 30 years ago and lost (2023)

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Re: IDEs we had 30 years ago and lost (2023)

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. I used to work as a phone surveyor, the one you hate. Our software is a terminal connected to a mainframe. I got used to it after a few weeks and was very productive. Costco Canada vision shops still use a terminal connected to an AS/400 machine as I snooped around last month.

In the late 90s I was required to slowly replace dumb terminals with PCs. One of the older ladies taking phone orders was most put out by this, understandably. She was lightning fast on that terminal. She'd never used a PC (I hit on the idea of using solitaire to learn to use a mouse, which worked amazingly well), and was never able to get to the same speed with one as she'd done on her dumb terminal. It's hard to be…

In my own little world, I saw this first with mail and news readers. It was fast and simple to read mail and news with pine and tin: The same keystroke patterns, over and over, to peruse and reply to emails and usenet threads.

As the network ebbed and flowed, email too-often became unreadable without a GUI, and what was once a good time of learning things on usenet became browsing web forums instead. It sucked. (It still sucks.)

In the greater world, I saw it happen first at auto parts stores.

One day, the person behind the counter would key in make/model/year/engine and requested part in a blur of familiar keystrokes on a dumb terminal. It was very, very fast for someone who was skilled -- and still pretty quick for those who hadn't yet gotten the rhythm of it.

But then, seemingly the next day: The terminals were replaced by PCs with a web browser and a mouse. Rather than a predictable (repeatable!) series of keystrokes to enter to get things done, it was all tedious pointing, clicking, and scrolling.

It was slow. (And it's still slow today.)

Re: IDEs we had 30 years ago and lost (2023)

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neovim is my favorite editor and is a brilliant TUI. I think what TUIs get right is that they are optimized for use by the keyboard. I don’t care if they are a pain for devs to write vs OS APIs, they have the best keyboard control so I use them. I despise the mouse due to RSI issues in the past.

Neovim instantly becomes a superior piece of software if you use any of the GUI frontends. If you use neovim inside a terminal you are just straight up using an inferior product, with less features and more problems. The terminal version is most likely slower as well as you now also have the entire legacy terminal overhead. >I think what TUIs get right is that they are optimized for use by the keyboard. Neovim is jus…

What do you get using a GUI frontend? I'm genuinely curious. I have a pretty modern neovim setup and have never missed having a GUI.

Heck, on modern terminals there's even pretty great mouse integration if you want.

Re: IDEs we had 30 years ago and lost (2023)

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

People should also stop using terminal emulators. It is pretty silly to base software around ancient printing terminals. Everyone knows for a fact that only tech illiterates use a console instead of a GUI. Since all great devs use a GUI. Just a fact. Also, people should stop playing 2D games. It is pretty silly to base your entertainment on ancient technology when modern GPUs can render super-complex 3D scenes. And d…

Current GPU's can't compete with my brain 'rendering' a Slash'em/Nethack scene with my pet cat while I kick ass some foes with my Doppleganger Monk full of Wuxia/Dragon Ball/Magical Kung Fu techniques.

Re: IDEs we had 30 years ago and lost (2023)

#344
post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone already mentioned before, I don't think you are talking about the same terminal as others are. >> need an enormous array of hacks to emulate basic features What are those hacks. As far as I can remember, TUIs ran faster on ancient hardware then anything else on today's modern computers.

>As someone already mentioned before, I don't think you are talking about the same terminal as others are. People know perfectly well that I am talking about the way in which a terminal emulator can be used to display 2D graphics. By utilizing specific escape sequences to draw arbitrary glyphs on the terminal grid. >What are those hacks. Everything is a hack. TUIs work by sending escape sequences, which the terminal…

There are no escape sequences when running TUI apps in DOS. They have direct memory access to the video card.

>> This is just delusional.

That is a bit uncalled for.

Re: IDEs we had 30 years ago and lost (2023)

#345
post #60

Hey, thanks for sharing this again! FYI, previous discussion from 2 years ago now (wow, time flies...): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38792446

Thanks! Macroexpanded:

IDEs we had 30 years ago - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38792446 - Dec 2023 (603 comments)

Re: IDEs we had 30 years ago and lost (2023)

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt it, probably just running on a regular Power ISA rack mount server from IBM. Though I guess technically all IBM i aka AS/400 is running on an emulator. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_i#Technology_Independent_M...

Nope, we still have an IBM i deployment kicking around at $DAYJOB, it's running natively on POWER hardware. Way back in the days of the original OS/400 running on AS/400 hardware, IBM had the foresight to have applications compile to MI (Machine Interface) code; which is a bytecode format closer to something like LLVM IR instead of something like JVM or CLR bytecode. When a PGM object is copied or created on an IBM i…

Nitpick:

The Machine Interface dates back to AS/400's predecessor, the System/38.

Re: IDEs we had 30 years ago and lost (2023)

#347
Far Manager on Windows, and Midnight Commander on Unix, work wonders for terminal-based development nowadays. Not only they allow you to have OS commands at the tips of your fingers, but also they allow you to navigate freely in the file system structure of a project while viewing/editing files with built-in or external editors.

UI/UX of those tools is pretty close to Borland IDEs, they have steep learning curve (at least 10x easier than vi/emacs).

Re: IDEs we had 30 years ago and lost (2023)

#348
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rough quote: "in 1984 we had at my house", so even 41 years seems to be in the scope. I was expecting - early projects that ended in Visual Studio 1.0 or NetBeans soon after, (2 to 9 years too early for them) not - "vim (1991) was not out yet" (not-a-quote, but my feeiling upon looking at ncurses instead of floating windows)

Yeah, by 1995, Visual Basic / C++, Delphi / Borland C++, and Symantec C++ were all-conquering. A few years before, it was very different - VisualAge and Rational Application Developer were the big names in the early 90s in "professional" IDEs. Interface Builder for university spin-outs or funky startups (and SunWorks / Forte Studio for the less-funky ones). CodeWarrior on the Mac (perhaps with THINK! hanging on too).…

An all-in-one like Rational Rose may be making a comeback in terms of these agentic AI projects, because now you actually can turn a spec into code without layers of tagging and UML.

Re: IDEs we had 30 years ago and lost (2023)

#349
post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Modern terminals do color just fine-- 24 bit color support has existed since 2010-ish, and been mainstream since 2015. There's nothing wrong with graphical IDEs... or text user interfaces. Great developers use both. Low effort troll is low effort.

+1 - crap code can come out of notepad / emacs / vi or IDE-flavor-of-the-day or even the AI code sausage maker. Testing, specification, knowing what you are building and why still matters.

Re: IDEs we had 30 years ago and lost (2023)

#350
post #23

I think Emacs still does all of this; the argument the author makes is that it is "arcane", it just uses conventions he is not used to. It is however fully self-documented and interactive. For me the best textual interface I've ever used remains Magit in Emacs: https://magit.vc/ I wish more of Emacs was like it. I actually use emacs as my git clients even when I'm using a different IDE for whatever reason.

Love Magit, it is a work of art. I moved to vim a few years back and miss magit dearly. The most feature complete Neovim magit clone is buggy.
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