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Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

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Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#341

Post by mock-possum »

sph wrote: post #105
kranke155 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read that in some societies, if you ended up not being able to feed yourself, they would bring you to your favorite tree and leave you there. If you ended back in camp you’d be welcomed. If you didn’t, that was your end. I found that remarkably comforting and peaceful.

I have this childhood memory of my neighbour's dog, that grew old and one day decided to go out in the woods and die peacefully. They found it a few days later. I wish to remain so lucid when the time comes, that I can go sit under a tree and let myself go like that old dog. Perhaps I should leave a note.

I always think of that scene from Donnie Darko - where he says when his dog got sick, she went to hide under the porch. “To die?” His therapist prompts him. “To be alone” he corrects her pointedly. [0]

That’s kind of what I want when I die too - I don’t think I want to be around other people when it happens. I want to have my final moments to face death on my own, without feeling like I have to perform for other people.

… that said, give me another 60 years to chew on it and maybe I’ll feel different.

[0] https://youtu.be/8j1IMBM-QyE?si=jfCe9YUvKW_t5m5e

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#342

Post by voakbasda »

beedeebeedee wrote: post #338
voakbasda wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not suicide. That’s a conspiracy to commit murder.

Yes, and that is one of the reasons our culture has made practices like these taboo- it can give the veneer of respectability to despicable acts

And why there should be more nuance to the issue: legalizing suicide is not the same as legalizing assisted suicide.

I want to be free to die on my own terms. Conversely, I do not want the healthcare system to be allowed to even suggest it.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#343

Post by dns_snek »

coldtea wrote: post #158
AQuantized wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You really don't want to end up with dementia and related illnesses, it totally sours everyone's view of you. This seems like such an absurd conclusion to this, as though the opinions of other people of you are what matter when you functionally lose your personhood and then die. Maybe a better focus would be that there often isn't a good way for a community to manage a person who suddenly becomes irrational because…

> This seems like such an absurd conclusion to this, as though the opinions of other people of you are what matter when you functionally lose your personhood and then die. They do matter. Being concerned with how your behavior affects your family or your community, and the opinion they have of you, above your own self-interest, is how good parents, good friends, good citizens, and so on, are made.

> Being concerned with how your behavior affects your family or your community, and the opinion they have of you, above your own self-interest, is how good parents, good friends, good citizens, and so on, are made.

You've changed the meaning behind the original comment in a subtle but important way. The original commenter wasn't concerned about their effects on other people, they were concerned about how the disease would ruin their public image. Maybe they didn't mean that but it's what they wrote.

This distinction matters because those people whose top priority is their public perception (i.e. social status) are never "good people". It's normal to care about your social status to some degree but it shouldn't be the first thing you consider.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#344

Post by EasyMark »

sarchertech wrote: post #95
1dom wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you’ve already made it to 90 with no major issues, you’re expected to make it to 95 and you could make easily live to 100. My wife’s grandad is 90 and he still lives alone, drives, plays golf nearly everyday, and regularly sees his 12 grandchildren and many great grandchildren. Counter-anecdote, my partners Granddad is 93. Age 90, we said the same as you. Now he's an old, rude, obnoxious liability - he's still g…

>I feel the desire to stay alive long enough to be a liability for yourself and those around you is a decision motivated by ego and fear, rather than compassion or logic. Everyone becomes a liability at some point. By that logic we should just go full Logan’s run and kill people as soon as they stop being productive. There nothing wrong with saying that you aren’t going to take extreme measures to preserve your life…

the big question is why do you get to choose that for me or why is it society's choice and not my own? assuming I'm of a healthy mental state.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#345

Post by zigzag312 »

bityard wrote: post #249
zigzag312 wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the issue with assisted suicide. A lot of old people bring burden and stress on loved ones at some point. How many old people will be guilt tripped into an assisted suicide because of this philosophy?

I don't see what that has to do with my comment, but okay: A lot less than are unwillingly bringing undue burden and stress to their family and neighbors because there is no legal mechanism to avoid it. Even fewer if we acknowledge that assisted suicide should be an option with a very high bar for those who would qualify. I wrote another comment about one way it might work.

I interpreted your argument that suffering that years of burden and stress on loved ones bring is a good reason for an assisted suicide. Or did I misunderstood you?

Regarding your estimates, are you just making up a lot of assumptions or do you have any data backing up your relative numbers? In your other comment you seem to assume that anyone not agreeing with OP's suggestion doesn't have personal experience with close relative having a dementia. I'm very sorry for your loss. At least some others (me included) also have had this unfortunate experience, but don't agree. High bar is actually very hard to quantify. All old people are in gradual decline and are relatively close to their deaths. One alternative to your suggestion would be that a state would provide quality professional care for people with dementia. That way the things OP described wouldn't happen and the family of the patient wouldn't have to bear the financial burden of the disease. We are more advanced and richer that we have ever been in human history, but it seems like we are unable, as a community, to provide very ill people with quality care they need.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#346

Post by dkural »

beedeebeedee wrote: post #317
tirant wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The definition of good is probably the closest to doing the opposite of inflicting pain on others. There’s very little chance that you will be hated by being good. So definitely behaving or being good is not so different than behaving in a way that other people don’t hate you.

> There’s very little chance that you will be hated by being good Jesus, Socrates, anyone who stands up against an immoral hierarchy. Rethink your thought

To go down this rabbit hole, presumably someone is hating somebody in this immoral hierarchy though? If everyone is happy with everyone, where's the immoral part? I do think the OP is right that in many circumstances of everyday life, being good usually correlates with being appreciated by people you actually have relationships with. Of course, this being real life, there are exceptions. However, while a child may complain and claim they hate you for not letting them have too much candy, they do love and appreciate you in a deeper way for taking care of them.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#347

Post by djaboss »

willmadden wrote: post #197

For every Daniel Kahneman case, there's a case where the victim doesn't give consent, is coerced, or pressured from caregivers. It always rapidly expands from terminal illness to mental illness or non-terminal conditions. There's also weak oversight and misaligned profit motives. The examples in the Netherlands, Switzerland, Canada, and Oregon are shocking.

Please provide shocking examples, especially for Switzerland. I'm eager to learn about real arguments from the other side.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#348

Post by procaryote »

ipaddr wrote: post #224
joelwilliamson wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He’d be dead either way, the question is if having those three years were a net improvement to his life

3 years living vs dying is a 3 year net improvement on life. Such silly statement. By your logic we should kill everyone at their peak.

In medical research on treatments the outcome is often measured in quality adjusted years of life, because just keping people alive at any cost is a bad metric.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#349

Post by thunky »

0xEF wrote: post #291
thunky wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry if I'm missing something but how do you plan to exit on your own terms if it's not allowed, and your only legal tools are DNRs and living wills? It seems like DIY methods could be risky to your family if you're already impacted by the disease, and your own competency is called into question.

You're not missing anything. I did not want to get too deep into it here, because let's be honest; thinking about having to take our own life is a really, really dark place to go, even if it with the best of intentions. I'm not really sure that HN is the place for that type of discussion, at least not on any detailed level. At the moment, I have standing orders in place that no heroic measures or treatments should be…

Thanks for sharing. I asked because I've had similar thoughts, and I'm not sure what can be done about it. I believe that there is usually a time window where it's possible to know what's coming your way and have the capacity to do something about it. Easier said than done.

Good luck to you.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#350

Post by beedeebeedee »

dkural wrote: post #346
beedeebeedee wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There’s very little chance that you will be hated by being good Jesus, Socrates, anyone who stands up against an immoral hierarchy. Rethink your thought

To go down this rabbit hole, presumably someone is hating somebody in this immoral hierarchy though? If everyone is happy with everyone, where's the immoral part? I do think the OP is right that in many circumstances of everyday life, being good usually correlates with being appreciated by people you actually have relationships with. Of course, this being real life, there are exceptions. However, while a child may co…

Jesus, Socrates, et al, are extreme examples that clearly debunk the comment made above. There are much more mild versions of that everywhere and everyday. Being ‘good’ in no way guarantees you will be loved. In fact, if you have integrity you will probably end up butting heads with people who are ‘not good’, and those folks will likely not hesitate to do underhanded and manipulative things to make you hated by others and not just them. Thankfully that is not everyone, but it is childish to believe that somehow being ‘good’ will make you beloved. If that were the case, being ‘good’ would be the easy choice that everyone makes. It is not.
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