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Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

blog.pragmaticengineer.com

341–350 of 369 posts

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#341
post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't that exactly how the criminal justice system works? No, it's not. We don't catch everybody guilty of petty theft, but those we do catch still don't end up in prison for life. There was a time when we chopped their right hand off, but I'm glad those days are behind us. (Reading many of the reactions here though, we are just a thin layer of judges away from mob rule.)

If the chances of getting caught are small, and the chances of being convicted are even smaller, should the punishment be harsher to have the same deterrent? You do understand how the petty theft criminal represented by a public defender is at a disadvantage to the white collar criminal with an army of lawyers paid by the company? "We should just catch more of them" is like saying we should just solve our energy prob…

No, it doesn't work. The US has been actively trying this in many states, so we have data on the relationship between deterrence effect and the likelihood*harshness of punishments - it turns out likelihood really controls the strength of the effect of deterrence. If you have extremely harsh punishments you DO incentivize doing a lot of damage to get away with it, and also incentivize repeat or exacerbated offending. (See: "might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb")

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#342
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the very least, these folks need to have their names permanently attached to this atrocity. These weren’t decisions made by “a corporation” - these people sat across a meeting room table and actually concluded that targeting breast cancer patients was an acceptable means to an end. Lori A. Beer was the CIO at the time. Now at JP Morgan.

"permanently" "ever again" For good reason, modern law systems rarely issue punishments that last a lifetime. People can and do change, and something stupid (and illegal) you did 30 years ago shouldn't be held over your head today. These are rare cases for the absolutely worst crimes. For anything else, you receive a punishment, be it money or months/years in jail, and after that, you deserve a chance to live a life…

Sanctimonious nonsense. The are plenty of kinds of crimes for which "modern law systems" commonly, and rightly, impose 'lifetime' penalties or restrictions. Restraining orders are a simple example. And C-suite assholes who commit fraud are rightly, and not rarely, barred from ever leading another company.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"permanently" "ever again" For good reason, modern law systems rarely issue punishments that last a lifetime. People can and do change, and something stupid (and illegal) you did 30 years ago shouldn't be held over your head today. These are rare cases for the absolutely worst crimes. For anything else, you receive a punishment, be it money or months/years in jail, and after that, you deserve a chance to live a life…

Punishment should match the crime, to both rehabilitate and be preventative. White collar crime gets basically no punishment, and looking at career of those people they usually end up falling upwards. For such cases banning them from being in a management position for X years would be a nice discouragement.

>>White collar crime gets basically no punishment, and looking at career of those people they usually end up falling upwards

I mean the article literally says the engineer could have been sent to prison for 75 years for his role in the fraud(effectively a lifetime sentence).

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Punishment should match the crime, to both rehabilitate and be preventative. White collar crime gets basically no punishment, and looking at career of those people they usually end up falling upwards. For such cases banning them from being in a management position for X years would be a nice discouragement.

>>White collar crime gets basically no punishment, and looking at career of those people they usually end up falling upwards I mean the article literally says the engineer could have been sent to prison for 75 years for his role in the fraud(effectively a lifetime sentence).

engineer? sure.

execs and upper management who instigate such incidents? almost no real punishment ever happens.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"permanently" "ever again" For good reason, modern law systems rarely issue punishments that last a lifetime. People can and do change, and something stupid (and illegal) you did 30 years ago shouldn't be held over your head today. These are rare cases for the absolutely worst crimes. For anything else, you receive a punishment, be it money or months/years in jail, and after that, you deserve a chance to live a life…

An 18 year old (HS senior) and a 15 year old (HS sophomore) can have sex together and thats a statutory rape charge that will follow you the rest of your life. And say its 2 17 year olds, and you take nude pictures to send to your partner. Now, having sex is legal here, but a picture? Thats possessing 'child sexual assault imagery'. Nobody would think 17 year olds are 'children'. Even the law routinely charges them a…

Happily Canada has Close in Age exceptions depending on the age of the younger party.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#347
post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the chances of getting caught are small, and the chances of being convicted are even smaller, should the punishment be harsher to have the same deterrent? You do understand how the petty theft criminal represented by a public defender is at a disadvantage to the white collar criminal with an army of lawyers paid by the company? "We should just catch more of them" is like saying we should just solve our energy prob…

No, it doesn't work. The US has been actively trying this in many states, so we have data on the relationship between deterrence effect and the likelihood*harshness of punishments - it turns out likelihood really controls the strength of the effect of deterrence. If you have extremely harsh punishments you DO incentivize doing a lot of damage to get away with it, and also incentivize repeat or exacerbated offending.…

Uh you don't have data on that for white collar crime. If you do, please share.

Petty theft is done for different reasons to white collar crime. I agree with you that the punishment is not a deterrence for small offences.

I think there's a lot of deterrence coming from the Enron case where people actually went to jail. That's just too rare because you quickly get into questions of intent. And to prove intent is really hard.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>White collar crime gets basically no punishment, and looking at career of those people they usually end up falling upwards I mean the article literally says the engineer could have been sent to prison for 75 years for his role in the fraud(effectively a lifetime sentence).

engineer? sure. execs and upper management who instigate such incidents? almost no real punishment ever happens.

Sam Friedman, the engineer's boss and the CEO was sentenced to 25 years in federal prison.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

engineer? sure. execs and upper management who instigate such incidents? almost no real punishment ever happens.

Sam Friedman, the engineer's boss and the CEO was sentenced to 25 years in federal prison.

and how many more fall upwards?

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sam Friedman, the engineer's boss and the CEO was sentenced to 25 years in federal prison.

and how many more fall upwards?

I have no idea, I'm just saying it's a weird comment to make on an article where both the engineer behind the fraud _and_ the management faced consequences of their actions.
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