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ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

metalhearf.fr

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Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#341
Interview from DR (Danish public news broadcast) with the Danish judicial minister Peter Hummelgaard, the politician who conceived the proposal:

https://www-dr-dk.translate.goog/nyheder/viden/teknologi/ana...

It is very obvious that he doesn't understand e2e, yet he will not listen. Bro couldn't even read the Wikipedia page

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#342

Imagine a future where it becomes easier to commit terrorism because of some technological advancements—like smaller, less traceable bombs, or chemical weapons that are easily accessible and lead to higher casualties—like in the 1,000s or more. Imagine in that scenario, that the likelihood of you or someone you know becoming the victim of a terrorist attack is now non-trivial in your society. In a future where this b…

If murder is common in the populace, then that means the social norms of that society have already drifted to the point where murder is acceptable. In that society, the murderers are probably running the government.

On your tangent about China, the people there are feeling so absolutely safe that they have the urge to install metal bars on every window of almost every home.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#343
post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What proof is there that peddlers of child pornography are using chat to distribute CSAM? Are you kidding me? How do you think predators get in contact with children? Over social media that children use, obviously. And of course many criminals use chat. Most have no clue about encryption, like the vast majority of humans.

“Distribute” not “contact”. Unless you want to scan all chat messages for potential signs of adults engaging in grooming of children too? Talk about a slippery slope, you’re basically making my point.

> Unless you want to scan all chat messages for potential signs of adults engaging in grooming of children too?

Well, the point is to scan all messages, period.

And then to detect those that come from predators, not adults. How often do parents convince their children to send... revealing pictures? Or to meet them somewhere? How often do parents introduce themselves to their children in messages?

You can't seriously believe that a conversation between parents and children always looks like a conversation between a predator and children, can you?

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#344
The one thing that I never see answered in the proposals is a simple answer to, "what's stopping CSAM users from using open-source encryption?".

You can ban this at a provider scale, but you simply can't track or enforce custom implementations at a small scale.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#345
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Criminals are reactive. If you add a CCTV where drug dealing happens, sellers and buyers will go to another place. In the end, nothing changes.

Not all of them are. Actually CCTVs catch some of them. Tapping their phones as well.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#346
post #339

Dear citizens of the EU: If this gets pushed through, you will gradually lose control of your government much like how the people of the UK already lost control of theirs. What are you going to do when the government's interests inevitably drift out of alignment with yours? Start a political movement? You will have the police knocking on your door for criticizing the establishment. Start a revolution? You have no wea…

> Start a revolution? You have no weapons. You can't even organize a resistance because all channels of communication are monitored. Unlike which country? The US I presume? I see very much a lack of any revolutions in the US, and the most resistance done in the past few decades was done by people with no weapons. I'd say most revolution-like movements of any kind in the US since the Civil War happened without weapons…

Even further, those who have traditionally been most vocal about second amendment rights are currently the biggest cheerleaders for the current authoritarian trend. Quite the plot twist.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#347
post #294

Most arguments I see against ChatControl sound like bullshit to me. How do we expect to convince anyone to go against ChatControl with those? I feel unease when it comes to ChatControl; I don't want my devices to run proprietary, opaque algorithms on all my data. And it feels like it fundamentally has to be opaque: nobody can't publish an open source list of illegal material together with their hash (precisely becaus…

Thanks for your feedback. You’ve raised some interesting points, I’ll take them into account and try to update some of my arguments.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#348
I regularly see similar articles with similar comments here, but there's one thing I still don't understand:

From the European Convention on Human Rights[1]:

  ARTICLE 8
  Right to respect for private and family life
  
  1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family
  life, his home and his correspondence.
  
  2. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the
  exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the
  law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of
  national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the
  country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection
  of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms
  of others.
  
So I wonder, what is the legal argument solid enough to justify interfering with everybody's right to privacy?

My layman understanding of the usual process is like, we want surveillance over those people and if it seems reasonable a judge might say ok but for a limited time. Watching everyone's communications also seems at odds with the principle of proportionality[2].

[1]https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/d/echr/Convention_ENG

[2]https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:12...

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#349
Which political parties in which countries should one vote for?

It's a good campaign, but let's say national elections are coming, one should know which politicians are in favour or against.

How else can we let our opinion be known other than by voting for the right politicians?

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#350
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what? If predators cannot talk to children over SnapChat, that's a win, wouldn't you say? The only valid argument I see against ChatControl is that fundamentally, you cannot know what it is reporting. It's not like if there would be an open source list of illegal material together with the hashes, right? If you cannot audit what is being reporting (with whatever means necessary to make sure it is doing what it sho…

> The only valid argument Really? The only one?

Really, yes. I am against ChatControl myself, and I am genuinely struggling to find credible messages against it.
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