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Help us raise $200k to free JavaScript from Oracle

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341–350 of 374 posts

Re: Help us raise $200k to free JavaScript from Oracle

#341

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Apparently the codename for the prototype language was "Mocha", infinitely better! Even the release name "LiveScript" is much better. They switched for cynical marketing reasons, riding the "Java" hype, and to flaunt their partnership with Sun. Well, it did make some kind of sense at the time when the scope was much smaller. They had this rough idea of an interpreted lightweight companion to Java, back when lots of b…

We should call it UnTypedScript

SelfishScript. JavaScript credits Self as inspiration, but misses all the important things about Self.

JavaScript copied:

The name "Java", cynically chosen for marketing misdirection, not technical truth.

The word "prototype" from Self, but turned it into a quirky pseudo-class system. Instead of living objects delegating naturally, with multiple inheritance dynamically changeable at runtime, JavaScript glued on a weird constructor-function pattern that always confuses people, with constructors you have to call with new but can also uselessly call as normal functional foot-guns.

JavaScript missed:

The fluid, live object experience (JavaScript dev environments were never designed around exploration like Self’s Morphic).

The elegance of uniformity (JavaScript bolted on primitives, type coercions, and special cases everywhere).

The idea that the environment mattered as much as the language. Netscape didn’t ship with the kind of rich, reflective tools that made Self shine.

And most important of all: Self's simplicity! The original Self paper (Ungar & Smith, 1987, “Self: The Power of Simplicity”) was all about stripping away everything unnecessary until only a uniform, minimal object model remained. The title wasn’t ornamental, it was the thesis.

Simplicity. Uniformity. Minimal semantics. A clean consistent model you can hold in your head. Less semantic baggage frustrating JIT compiler optimization. Dynamic de-optimization (or pessimization as I like to call it).

Self proved that expressive power comes from radical simplicity.

JavaScript showed that market dominance comes from compromise (worse is better, the selfish gene).

JavaScript should be called SelfishScript because it claimed Self’s legacy but betrayed its central insight: that simplicity is not just aesthetic, it’s the whole design philosophy.

Re: Help us raise $200k to free JavaScript from Oracle

#343

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Does it matter? When I say deno, you think of the software product deno, produced by deno. Just like when I say coca cola, you think of the specific drink produced by the coca cola company. What I say escalator, you don't think of that specific company's products, but of the staircase conveyor. When I say javascript, do you think of any oracle product? No! So why should users of javascript live in fear of a lawsuite…

Oh it very much matters. Folks are questioning the legitimacy of this endeavour. It’d be total hypocracy for them to be freeing JavaScript from Oracle and stating trademarks are bad and then to be maintaining similar themselves.

I don't agree. I don't think of Oracle at all when I think of JavaScript. And I also don't care whether they own the trademark.

There's no hypocrisy.

Re: Help us raise $200k to free JavaScript from Oracle

#345

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It does seem that rebranding would just fix the problem. I don’t really understand why the name is worth fighting over.

Didn’t we try that experiment already with ECMAScript? Have you met anyone using it? Me neither. I can’t wait for the “well actually” comments.

I actually still thought that was the official name, but I never call it that.

But really, what does it matter? Is Oracle suing people over the term JavaScript? Even if so, can’t they just use the correct term and the rest of us can call it JavaScript?

I guess I just really don’t understand why this is a good use of my donations rather than, say, feeding the hungry, and I don’t mean that to disparage any tech related not for profits or issues.

Re: Help us raise $200k to free JavaScript from Oracle

#346
post #274

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> No, it still causes confusion from new programmers, HR, execs who thinks JavaScript === writing Java Scripts. Anyone that stupid in 2025 is hopeless.

Intelligence has nothing to do with it. You can’t deduce JavaScript and Java aren’t related, you have to be told/read that.

You can if you work in this industry and care about anything you do.

Re: Help us raise $200k to free JavaScript from Oracle

#347
post #326

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Neither you can deduce that car and carpet aren't related. For god's sake, even cars have carpets inside to add to the confusion!

Please don’t strawman. It’s that kind of exaggerated bad faith argument that propagates anti-intellectualism in society. I can’t believe I’m having to explain this, but you can show people a car and a carpet and they’ll understand how they differ. But if you show them two different programming languages , most people won’t be able to tell the difference. Just like most people see Chinese and Japanese, Swedish and Fin…

Why is someone who has no understanding of anything related to the material running HR at this fictional company?

Re: Help us raise $200k to free JavaScript from Oracle

#348
post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don’t strawman. It’s that kind of exaggerated bad faith argument that propagates anti-intellectualism in society. I can’t believe I’m having to explain this, but you can show people a car and a carpet and they’ll understand how they differ. But if you show them two different programming languages , most people won’t be able to tell the difference. Just like most people see Chinese and Japanese, Swedish and Fin…

[flagged]

> Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents, and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken.

and

> When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."

HN Guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Help us raise $200k to free JavaScript from Oracle

#349
post #22

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JS is better and you can make it a recurisve backronym. JS stands for: JS Script.

Probably to close to JScript, not sure if Microsoft cares enough to sue though.

They always care later when money is available and they need a new way to damage their brand.

Re: Help us raise $200k to free JavaScript from Oracle

#350

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What you need is the opposite: a trademarked name but one where a community-managed nonprofit foundation owns. That’s how other languages (eg Perl and Python) manage their assets. And the ecosystem is better for it.

>Perl >Python >And the ecosystem is better for it. AHAHAHAHAHH

I take it form your reply that you either misunderstood my comment or you think the constant threat of litigation from Oracle is a good thing.

Either way, you come off as incredibly naïve.

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