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14 Killed in anti-government protests in Nepal

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Re: 14 Killed in anti-government protests in Nepal

#341
post #22

Hard-earned freedoms are wasted on societies who don't have memories of what it took to earn them. Freedom is a ratchet: slides easily and frictionlessly one way, and offers immense resistance in the other. This is all so disheartening.

I’m not aware of a single nation where the ratchet is loosening. It appears freedom is being eroded everywhere. The most disheartening thing is that nothing works to stop it. There are countries where millions of people have protested, but in time the protests always fizzle or are stamped out, and things continue on the same trajectory.

> The most disheartening thing is that nothing works to stop it.

Armed citizenry? I do not see any other way. Power always corrupts.

Re: 14 Killed in anti-government protests in Nepal

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In primitive societies where people are expected to resolve their own problems because everyone is roughly equal, violence is the principal currency, for better or worse. But in "civilized" societies with multiple layers of power structures, you are not supposed to solve your own problem, you are supposed to show somebody in a position of power that you are the victim so they solve the problem for you. This means vic…

> you are supposed to show somebody in a position of power that you are the victim so they solve the problem for you. This means victimhood is the principal currency of power This doesn't describe how legal systems evolved at all. They evolved to protect the powerful from each other. You went through the legal system because if you didn't you escalated your problem from a dispute with one powerful person to a dispute…

Is how they evolved relevant? When somebody protests against the government itself, the legal system doesn't even matter, unless it has a mechanism how people can secede legally. Do any have that?

When I meant is that victimhood works when you need to gain support from somebody with more power than you. Either from the legal system or from masses of people. The latter can by foreign (putting political pressure on the government) or domestic (gathering more people to show how many are willing to stand against it). Violence is the only thing that can work when there is nobody to appeal to (again, not just legally but through empathy or intimidation) - see below - a large crowd is a lot of implied potential violence and you need victimhood to achieve that mass.

> Since mechanised warfare, I think there have been more peaceful revolutions than (non-state backed) violent ones.

I purposefully didn't mention examples like the "Velvet" revolution because they too use violence, they just don't materialize it.

Violence is most powerful when it's implied, before it's used physically. Imagine oppressing a nation >10 million and now 1 million are standing on the square in front of your government building, shouting slogans. Anybody would give up power "peacefully" because if they didn't, there's a high chance that implied violence would materialize and they'd end up killed instead of having made a nice deal for peaceful retirement.

> The latter tend to just result in failed states.

Because the latter tend to happen in states which never had functioning institutions to begin with so they have no experience with running a functioning let alone democratic state. Sarah Paine had a lecture about how restoring democracy to Germany or bringing it to Japan after WW2 was possible because they already has the organizational knowledge. But the US failed to bring democracy to Afghanistan or other places it invaded because those were always a mess full or corruption and you'd need several generations to ingrain the principles.

Re: 14 Killed in anti-government protests in Nepal

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> billboards contribute to an overall campaign backed by billions of dollars to create a chilling effect I’m not sure how anyone listening to the American discourse around Israel and Gaza can conclude there is a chilling effect around anything in the public space. (Note: not academia.) More specifically, this argument —one side is trying to chill the other by speaking too much—could be used to justify censorship arou…

> I’m not sure how anyone listening to the American discourse around Israel and Gaza can conclude there is a chilling effect around anything in the public space You're just not being targeted, aren't exposed to it or aren't paying attention. In my comment, I said, "People in other cities who voice this same concern are getting kidnapped or become the subject of targeted harassment campaigns that include vans rolling…

> The “doxxing truck” appeared days after the Harvard Palestine Solidarity Groups

Called out academia as an exception.

> You have not even seen the billboards I'm talking about, have not asked me about them, you're just dismissing them out of bias

I’m dismissing them on the basis of being billboards.

> They are actively creating a conflict narrative

Yeah. That’s legitimate speech. To pretend there isn’t a debate about what to call what’s going on in Gaza is a bit insular and counterproductive.

Again: there is a chilling effect. Disagreeable billboards aren’t an example of that.

Re: 14 Killed in anti-government protests in Nepal

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you are supposed to show somebody in a position of power that you are the victim so they solve the problem for you. This means victimhood is the principal currency of power This doesn't describe how legal systems evolved at all. They evolved to protect the powerful from each other. You went through the legal system because if you didn't you escalated your problem from a dispute with one powerful person to a dispute…

Is how they evolved relevant? When somebody protests against the government itself, the legal system doesn't even matter, unless it has a mechanism how people can secede legally. Do any have that? When I meant is that victimhood works when you need to gain support from somebody with more power than you. Either from the legal system or from masses of people. The latter can by foreign (putting political pressure on the…

> Is how they evolved relevant?

Yes. You described a “primitive” legal system that in truth didn’t exist.

Early legal systems didn’t have anything to do with victimhood beyond demonstrating harm. They didn’t have systems for the powerless because they didn’t concern themselves with them, they were a means by which elites peacefully resolved disputes.

> unless it has a mechanism how people can secede legally

What?

> When I meant is that victimhood works when you need to gain support from somebody with more power than you

How would you differentiate that from demonstrating harm?

Re: 14 Killed in anti-government protests in Nepal

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In primitive societies where people are expected to resolve their own problems because everyone is roughly equal, violence is the principal currency, for better or worse. But in "civilized" societies with multiple layers of power structures, you are not supposed to solve your own problem, you are supposed to show somebody in a position of power that you are the victim so they solve the problem for you. This means vic…

> Yet how many of those governments were created by violent armed revolt against a previous authoritarian government? How many by "peaceful" protests? This is actually an interesting question. Many post-colonial governments, notably India, were create through what might be called non-violent means. Would be interesting to have someone properly research that.

Yes, I won't pretend it's clear cut or that the numbers without context mean much.

How I see it:

- Victimhood works when there is somebody to appeal to or other people to gain support from. - Violence works when there's no higher power or when you already have the most popular support you ever will.

Getting more people to join you and openly protest is a lot of implied/potential violence. Meaning you can use victimhood (see how the police are beating us) to gain more potential violence for use later. Either the people in power see this and back down (e.g. Velvet revolution) before the violence materializes, or not. They can also see how successful materialized violence can become and flee (e.g. Syria) or they can try to win a civil war (e.g. Myanmar).

I haven't read much about India yet but my guess is victimhood worked in the case of India because essentially they were getting the support of citizens in the UK (a higher power) to pressure their government into giving it independence. It was costly for the politicians to be oppressors and also get reelected.

Victimhood failed in China and recently Belarus because 1) there was nobody to appeal to 2) the oppressors didn't back down 3) the protesters failed to materialize the violence and were defeated by the government's violence.

Re: 14 Killed in anti-government protests in Nepal

#347
post #190

Nepal is an interesting nation. Compared to nearby poor nations, Nepal is safe and its people are perceived to be welcoming. It's the only serious candidate for being a ski-nation in all of mainland Asia. If Nepal wanted, it could transform itself into a Bali style tourist destination and ascend towards being a middle economy. Unlike India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, which have to solve 1-billion-people scale problems,…

> It's the only serious candidate for being a ski-nation in all of mainland Asia

Indian Himalayas have ski resorts.

> If Nepal wanted, it could transform itself into a Bali style tourist destination and ascend towards being a middle economy.

Landlocked country with little natural resources. Who's funding this project? Watch a YouTube about the Kathmandu-Pokhara road. Infrastructure is not easy there.

> Nepal's refusal to leverage the (few) advantages of its geography is baffling.

They grow rice on hills, have a thriving mountaineering ecosystem, and build dense cities in the valleys large enough to support them. How are they not leveraging them?

> As a communist-adjacent nation, it has a closed off economy with deep suspicion towards free markets.

The county to their south went this way after the Raj, for what I believe are fair reasons. I can see how that influenced Nepal's hesitancy to open up more to international brands.

> Yet, the national messaging alternates between blaming India or China for all their problems.

They aren't wrong! India had "interstate entry taxes" up until 2017 - taxes that cargo had to pay in each state on the way to the ports. It wasn't even the just the national governments making life harder to Nepali, it was individual states!

> However, do the protesters have an outcome in mind

Their anger is justification enough. It's tough for college graduates in the region to find a career that matches their education level.

> But, will they be okay with opening Nepal up to free markets?

Nepal isn't as closed to free markets as you keep insinuating. There are malls with Asian brands where people can go shop. Not having as many American brands makes sense given the logistics problems. There are western restaurants. There are western hotel brands. There are Indian hotel brands.

> This may mean selling resort building contracts to major western ski companies.

Taj, Oberoi, Leela (Indian resort brands) could probably build a wonderful one. And they haven't, I presume they have the numbers demonstrating this doesn't work economically.

> It may mean opening unsafe sweatshops for Adidas to make shoes there.

There's no world where that makes sense economically. See my note about India previous state tariffs/state taxes. Just presume there's all sorts of hidden middlemen between KTM and ports.

> It may mean resource exploration by foreign mining companies.

China would be there already if it was viable (read more about the few roads north to China)

> with steep political costs (Farm Bill, GST) to the the incumbent.

Your wording makes me think you are Indian. If I'm correct, The best thing you can do is encourage more Indians to go enjoy what Nepal has to offer now, so they can afford to invest in some of the improvements you propose :)

Re: 14 Killed in anti-government protests in Nepal

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it’s literally a war crime to use tear gas on the battlefield Chemical weapons are banned because they’re useless for a modern military [1]. [1] https://acoup.blog/2020/03/20/collections-why-dont-we-use-ch...

That explanation sounds fishy to me. If something doesn't work then there's no need to ban it.

In addition to what the other commenter said, it's virtue signaling.

Re: 14 Killed in anti-government protests in Nepal

#349
post #53
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not aware of a single nation where the ratchet is loosening. It appears freedom is being eroded everywhere. The most disheartening thing is that nothing works to stop it. There are countries where millions of people have protested, but in time the protests always fizzle or are stamped out, and things continue on the same trajectory.

We recently had a record-sized protest in Taiwan and major political movements as a result. The recall movement was also unprecedented, though it ostensibly failed. However the KMT has failed in its coupe so there's still a positive outcome. It's why I'm here - it's one of the only countries on earth for which I'm politically optimistic.

> It's why I'm here - it's one of the only countries on earth for which I'm politically optimistic.

My curiosity is piqued by this. Do you mean to say you've moved there from somewhere place? And what do you mean, why is it the only country for which you're politically optimistic?

I don't mean to pry, and have no ulterior motive or point in asking. It just seems like a strong statement, and I cannot guess what you mean, or if I'm missing some cultural insinuation here or something. Taiwan does sound like a very interesting place to me, generally, though.

Re: 14 Killed in anti-government protests in Nepal

#350
post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He made that with the business he already had and some legal cryptocurrency investment based on capitalizing his fame. How on earth you call that "corruption"? Are you even aware of what the word means?

How could "buy and hold my crypto pump and dump or Ill cut aid/hike tariffs to your country" not be corruption?

People who voted for him are still trying to work out in their own heads how he's not a criminal.
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