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We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

thenexus.media

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Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#341

Post by bogdan »

ahartmetz wrote: post #255
Bukhmanizer wrote: post #92

The issue is that American media/discourse paints a very distorted view of what life under authoritarian rule is like. The truth is in many countries, unless you’re some kind of minority, politically active, or in legal trouble, day-to-day life is mostly similar to life in the west. But people don’t want to hear that, because we want to feel better than them. Like we wouldn’t tolerate that kind of life. Of course the…

Yes. I've been to China, daily life for regular people is mostly fine (bad work-life balance notwithstanding, as in other Asian countries). Nothing like the old stories from Russia (written by Russians, mind you) or even the relative material comfort but heavy-handed state control like in the GDR. Daily life can also be fine in fascism if you don't belong to any "unpopular" groups and don't care about any. Until the…

> Until the customary war starts

It's good to know liberal democratic progressive countries such like the US would never start a war.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#342

Post by frontfor »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #238
Bukhmanizer wrote: post #92

The issue is that American media/discourse paints a very distorted view of what life under authoritarian rule is like. The truth is in many countries, unless you’re some kind of minority, politically active, or in legal trouble, day-to-day life is mostly similar to life in the west. But people don’t want to hear that, because we want to feel better than them. Like we wouldn’t tolerate that kind of life. Of course the…

This is a naive view. Life under the Soviet Union was horrible. Talk to nearly everyone who lived in fear that their neighbors would rat on them. That affects everyone.

The horrible life in Soviet Union was due to horrible governmental policies, which are not unique to authoritarian governments. Liberal governments have their fair share of bad policies.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#343

Post by bluecalm »

Imo some social credit/reputation mechanism is needed. As it is there is very little you can do to judge trustworthiness of your business partners. Bad apples make services worse and more expensive for everyone. Honest people are in effect subsidizing behavior of dishonest people. It's often talked about in context of insurance but it happens everywhere.

I want to rent a hotel room or Airbnb: risk of me ruining or stealing from the place is include in the price. I want hire a contractor: I may run into the same guy who scammed 10 people already and changed name of his business again. I want to rent a car: it's more expensive because of reckless drivers renting it as well and the owner have no way to tell if I am a responsible one. We pay idiot/scammer premium everywhere.

There is a real need for that mechanism and if we keep putting our head in the sand big corps with proprietary solutions will cover that need. That is the worst of both worlds.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#344

Post by ineedaj0b »

coldtea wrote: post #333
watersb wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Was US ever a liberal democracy? People had much less liberties in the 1950s than today, Your question deserves an answer. The US was a liberal (post-Enlightenment) democracy. Senator McCarthy was eventually kicked out of Congress for his witch hunt. President Nixon was confronted by Republican members of Congress, and he resigned after this meeting rather than face impeachment. So when I was a kid, lawmakers large…

> Senator McCarthy was eventually kicked out of Congress for his witch hunt "Eventually discarded when no longer useful" would be a more accurate phrasing. The witch hunts continued under other schemes and for other targets. > As a liberal democracy, the United States has never been perfect, but it's always been worth improving. Well, isn't that the case with every government?

it was a good witch hunt. we very much almost lost the Cold War to the soviets. the US public and government officials had no idea how bad it was in the USSR. The majority of intellectuals glazed the Soviet Union.

We witch hunted. We also got lapped by the FSB most years. What saved us was our economic engine.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#345

Post by benreesman »

mattnewton wrote: post #178
Bukhmanizer wrote: post #92

The issue is that American media/discourse paints a very distorted view of what life under authoritarian rule is like. The truth is in many countries, unless you’re some kind of minority, politically active, or in legal trouble, day-to-day life is mostly similar to life in the west. But people don’t want to hear that, because we want to feel better than them. Like we wouldn’t tolerate that kind of life. Of course the…

> unless you’re some kind of minority, politically active, or in legal trouble, day-to-day life is mostly similar to life in the west Okay but that is exactly why I would prefer a western liberal government. It is better and that is ideal is worth criticizing authoritarians for, and fighting to keep in the west.

There isn't an "authoritarian bit", it's not binary. When I was young the idea that your own computer would spy on you, or the one in your phone, or in your car? That was a William Gibson novel, wiretaps happened to mob bosses, you didn't worry about it happening to you as part of a dragnet. Security camera? You mean in a bank right?

Microsoft bundling IE was so egregious that the department of justice took time off from chasing drug dealers and terrorists and came within an inch of being split up if it didn't back the fuck off on strangling the web. Financial fraud on Wall St or in the boardroom? Skilling, Fastow, Ebers. Hard prison time. Clinton lied about chasing skirt in the office, ended his career, real consequences.

Even once the Internet was becoming common, the idea that something typed into it might get you fired? Preposterous!

I don't know what being a "western liberal" government means to you, but this thing where all the walls have ears and billionaires do fucking anything they want and no scandal can damage a politician and all the surveilance and technology is an ever-tightening noose and everything is on a permanent record?

Sounds pretty damned Soviet to me.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#346

Post by graemep »

deadfoxygrandpa wrote: post #320
blitzar wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> worry about what they say, they self-censor out of fear, they defer to those in power Sounds a lot like having a job.

its like what the old east german people said after the wall fell. i forget the exact phrase but its something like: "before, i could criticize my boss but i couldn't criticize the government. now i can criticize the government but i can't criticize my boss"

I agree that is a problem, particular with the concentration of power in small industries and the cultural homogenisation of people in power.

I recall in 2016 British employers who said they would fire any employees they discovered voted for Brexit - of course the only way they could find out is if people said how the voted but that is a free speech issue.

I think we need legal protections for things like free speech that we have traditionally had against governments to apply to employers and service providers. I think legislation that prevents various forms of discrimination proves it is achievable.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#347

Post by mr_toad »

FrancisMoodie wrote: post #299
betaby wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Holy moly the US is kafkaesque. Not really. Try to rent an apartment in Germany (any EU country really). Canada / USA is a breeze in comparison.

What? They don't check your credit score where I live (west-eu). They check your pay slip to see how much you make monthly and if it your rent is less than half your paycheck they can decide to let you rent. After that is a two or three month downpayment that is locked in a seperate bank account specifically for this use and is released at the end of the lease. If there is no damage to the rental unit you get back yo…

In the UK they’ll do background checks, and check your salary. They’d ask for six months rent in advance if it wasn’t illegal. And even though it is illegal.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#349

Post by skeezyboy »

bluedevilzn wrote: post #226

I moved from Canada to California for a new job with a mid six figure salary. I had a very difficult time finding a place to rent as I had no credit score. Only places that were available without credit score was a room to share. That was not an option with a cat, wife and kids. Finally, I found a place that was willing to accept the entire year's rent up front. Moving such a large amount of money from Canada to US h…

youre talking solely about financial credit there bud. different thing entirely

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#350

Post by derelicta »

insane_dreamer wrote: post #294

I agree with the article's assessment that the US also has a social credit scores, but: - it's not at all the same as an aggregated government-assigned score (though we may be on the road to that) - the take of "things are so bad in China and basically the same here" are very naive; live in China for 5+ years and I guarantee you'll have a different view

Regarding the second point: I know right? If a lot more peeps were to have a chat with the average chinese netizen, I think it would shatter a lot of misconceptions about the People's Republic.
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