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Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

antirez.com

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Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#341

Post by jatora »

gf000 wrote: post #298
keeda wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After all the effort getting to the point where the generated code is acceptable, one has to wonder, why not just write it yourself? Because it is still way, way, way faster and easier. You're absolutely right that the hard part is figuring out the solution. But the time spent typing is in no way trivial or cognitively simple, especially for more complex tasks. A single prompt can easily generate 5 - 10x the amount…

> frequently accounts for edge cases I hadn't considered, saving unquantifiable amounts of future debugging time; And creates new ones you wouldn't even consider before, creating just as much, if not more future debugging :D

Getting pretty tired of this narrative. It's a very GPT-4 2023 era take that LLM's are just introducing untold amounts of bugs. People need to seriously learn their AI tooling and stop repeating this nonsense.

At the most generous I will allow, it's an illusion where producing 20-50x the amount of code/hour introduces a higher raw count of bugs relative to what you are used to in that timeframe - but this notion of AI coders being more bugprone than humans is utter nonsense. The only way thats not true is on very niche systems or when the human has conceptualized and planned out their code extensively beforehand - in which case AI would still be the superior next step.

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#342

Post by Der_Einzige »

oblio wrote: post #251
__loam wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's being honest, not rude

Honesty doesn't look like this: > [...] get lost [...] > [..] We don't want you to be a part of it either. [...] He's being rude. Honesty would be, something like: > I (and probably many others) like programming a lot. Even if you're frustrated with it, I think a great deal of people will be sad if somehow programming disappeared completely. It might be best for you if you just found a job that you love more, instead…

Rudeness is a good rhetorical choice to make a point. Only stupid idiots would think differently.

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#343

Post by senko »

nlh wrote: post #33

Can anyone recommend a workflow / tools that accomplishes a slightly more augmented version of antirez’ workflow & suggestions minus the copy-pasting? I am on board to agree that pure LLM + pure original full code as context is the best path at the moment, but I’d love to be able to use some shortcuts like quickly applying changes, checkpoints, etc. My persistent (and not unfounded?) worry is that all the major tools…

I use the agent panel in my editor of choice (Zed).

For each task I always start with a new (empty) context and manually tag relevant files to include (this is trivial since I know the codebase well).

First I use Claude 4 Sonnet in thinking mode (I could also use Gemini 2.5 Pro or Opus as per antirez' recommendations) to come up with a detailed plan on how to implement something (research/planning phase). I provide feedback and we iterate on the plan.

Then, in the same conversation I switch to Sonnet 4 non-thinking and tell it to implement what we just devised.

I manually review the changes and trst them. If something needs fixing or (more often) if I notice I missed some edge case/caveat, I tell it to do that (still same convo).

Commit, clear convo, next task.

For research that isn't directly tied to the code, I use ChatGPT or Claude (web apps) to brainstorm ideas, and sometimes copy/pasre these into the editor agent as starting point.

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#344

Post by Abishek_Muthian »

simonw wrote: post #141
dakiol wrote: post #25

> Gemini 2.5 PRO | Claude Opus 4 Whether it's vibe coding, agentic coding, or copy pasting from the web interface to your editor, it's still sad to see the normalization of private (i.e., paid) LLM models. I like the progress that LLMs introduce and I see them as a powerful tool, but I cannot understand how programmers (whether complete nobodies or popular figures) dont mind adding a strong dependency on a third part…

The models I can run locally aren't as good yet, and are way more expensive to operate. Once it becomes economical to run a Claude 4 class model locally you'll see a lot more people doing that. The closest you can get right now might be Kimi K2 on a pair of 512GB Mac Studios, at a cost of about $20,000.

What type of code you write for which the opensource models aren't good enough?

I use Qwen2.5 coder for auto complete and occasional chat. I don't want AI to edit my code and so this works well for me.

I agree that the hardware investment for local AI is steep but IMO the local models are good enough for most experienced coders who just want a better autocomplete than the one provided by the IDE by default.

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#345

Post by gf000 »

jatora wrote: post #341
gf000 wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> frequently accounts for edge cases I hadn't considered, saving unquantifiable amounts of future debugging time; And creates new ones you wouldn't even consider before, creating just as much, if not more future debugging :D

Getting pretty tired of this narrative. It's a very GPT-4 2023 era take that LLM's are just introducing untold amounts of bugs. People need to seriously learn their AI tooling and stop repeating this nonsense. At the most generous I will allow, it's an illusion where producing 20-50x the amount of code/hour introduces a higher raw count of bugs relative to what you are used to in that timeframe - but this notion of A…

> the only way thats not true is on very niche systems

Are these very niche? Yeah, there is a category of coding where what you are doing is essentially translating from English to some high-level language with high-level APIs. This is not significantly different than translating to Spanish, of course LLMs will be successful here.

But there are endless other domains with complex reasoning where LLMs absolutely suck. Like please tell me how will an LLM reason about concurrent access. And prompting it so that it will reply with "Oh you are right, here is Atomic blahblah" is not reasoning, it's statistical nonsense.

Don't get me wrong, I do think LLMs are a very useful tool, but it is as much overhyped by some as it is underhyped by others.

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#346

Post by elyase »

vl wrote: post #308
ghm2180 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but rather to learn how to conduct research Further, I always assumed PhD level of knowledge meant coming up with the right questions. I would say it is at best a "Lazy Knowledge Rich worker", it won't explore hypothesis if you don't * ask it* to. A PHD would ask those questions to *themselves*. Let me give you a simple example: The other day Claude Code(Max Pro Subscription) commented out a bunch of test assertion…

It's ultrathink one word, not ultra-think . (See below). I use Claude Code with Opus, and had same experience - was pushing it hard to implement complex test, and it gave me an empty test function with test plan inside in a comment (lol). I do want to try Gemini 2.5 Pro, but I don't know a tool which would make experience compatible to Claude Code. Would it make sense to use with Cursor? Do they try to limit context?…

https://github.com/sst/opencode

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#347

Post by arvinsim »

Abishek_Muthian wrote: post #344
simonw wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The models I can run locally aren't as good yet, and are way more expensive to operate. Once it becomes economical to run a Claude 4 class model locally you'll see a lot more people doing that. The closest you can get right now might be Kimi K2 on a pair of 512GB Mac Studios, at a cost of about $20,000.

What type of code you write for which the opensource models aren't good enough? I use Qwen2.5 coder for auto complete and occasional chat. I don't want AI to edit my code and so this works well for me. I agree that the hardware investment for local AI is steep but IMO the local models are good enough for most experienced coders who just want a better autocomplete than the one provided by the IDE by default.

The people who are subscribing to private LLM models are not doing it for better autocomplete. These are the people who want more features like agents.

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#348

Post by edanm »

dakiol wrote: post #25

> Gemini 2.5 PRO | Claude Opus 4 Whether it's vibe coding, agentic coding, or copy pasting from the web interface to your editor, it's still sad to see the normalization of private (i.e., paid) LLM models. I like the progress that LLMs introduce and I see them as a powerful tool, but I cannot understand how programmers (whether complete nobodies or popular figures) dont mind adding a strong dependency on a third part…

> The excuse "but you earn six figures, what' $200/month to you?" doesn't really capture the issue here.

Why?

If I want to pick up many hobbies, not to mention lines of professional work, I have to pay for tools. Why is programming any different? Why should it be?

Complaining that tools that improve your life cost money is... weird, IMO. What's the alternative? A world in which people gift you life-and-work-improving tools for free? For no reason? That doesn't exist.

> Programming used to be (and still is, to a large extent) an activity that can be done with open and free tools.

Btw, I think this was actually less true in the past. Compilers used to cost money in the 70s/80s. I think it's actually cyclical - most likely tools will cost money today, but then down the line, things will start getting cheaper again until they're free.

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#349

Post by InterviewFrog »

Abishek_Muthian wrote: post #344
simonw wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The models I can run locally aren't as good yet, and are way more expensive to operate. Once it becomes economical to run a Claude 4 class model locally you'll see a lot more people doing that. The closest you can get right now might be Kimi K2 on a pair of 512GB Mac Studios, at a cost of about $20,000.

What type of code you write for which the opensource models aren't good enough? I use Qwen2.5 coder for auto complete and occasional chat. I don't want AI to edit my code and so this works well for me. I agree that the hardware investment for local AI is steep but IMO the local models are good enough for most experienced coders who just want a better autocomplete than the one provided by the IDE by default.

Using AI for autocomplete is like using a racecar to pick up groceries. This is exactly what the author says about avoiding LLMs for some ideological or psychological refusal.

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#350

Post by blackoil »

dakiol wrote: post #25

> Gemini 2.5 PRO | Claude Opus 4 Whether it's vibe coding, agentic coding, or copy pasting from the web interface to your editor, it's still sad to see the normalization of private (i.e., paid) LLM models. I like the progress that LLMs introduce and I see them as a powerful tool, but I cannot understand how programmers (whether complete nobodies or popular figures) dont mind adding a strong dependency on a third part…

That's a code time dependency which is of least concern. That's like saying how can a company hire a developer, they are now having a dependency.

Code written will continue to run, you can use alternate LLM to further write code. Unless you are a pure vibe coder, you can still type the code. IF programmer stop learning how to write code, that's on them and not Claude's or antirez responsibility.

We are using best tool available to us, right now it is Claude Code, tomorrow it may be something from OpenAI, Meta or Deepseek.

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