Live data from Hacker News

Five companies now control over 90% of the restaurant food delivery market

marketsaintefficient.substack.com

341–350 of 350 posts

Re: Five companies now control over 90% of the restaurant food delivery market

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m puzzled by your view but also curious. What’s short term about the climate crisis? And with intensifying authoritarianism what do you think is going to reverse our current trajectory? And what do you think determines whether standard of living rises or not? In our circumstances, which to me seem quite dire, I’m curious what motor you think powers human progress.

When did the discussion turn into climate crisis? I thought this was about quality of life. That's all I am talking about here. Quality of life is determined by how well off the poor or average people can live. How "easy" their life is and what luxuries they can afford, how long they now can live etc. I think the advent of technology and mass commercial farming food production and all that allows the general populati…

I guess with the impending climate crisis quality of life will very likely go way down.

Climate catastrophe is expected to destabilize societies. A natural outcome from that could plausibly be the rise of extreme ideologies that advocate for nuclear conflict for example. It’s plausible human beings face an existential threat in the coming decades.

I think human progress is a chaotic process dependent on human choices, not a determined one. For example some hunter gatherer societies have lived lives of leisure working as little as 15-20 hours per week - quite a lot of ease compared to the modern work week most of us see. Human history is much more heterogenous and chaotic than what one might conclude from a perspective limited to today, medieval peasants, and ancient Egypt.

Luxuries I think should be viewed critically also. The effect of luxuries is unfortunately likely canceled by the hedonic treadmill. In our current society roughly 30% of people are suffering from mental illness like anxiety or depression. This is despite having iPhones instead of landlines.

You are right that longevity has increased over the long term. I think this is a stronger area of your argument. But is longevity alone a good measure for quality of life? I think we should include other factors, like happiness. Unfortunately we just don’t have those statistics over any meaningful horizon.

Overall I think measuring quality of life over the long history of our species isn’t quite as straightforward as you make it out to be. We must be wary of adopting just so stories. Quite a lot of heterogeneous human experience falls under this generalization, and most of it, at the very least, we just don’t have good data for.

In my view, progress that human beings experience is contingent, the result of our choices. Sadly I don’t think there is an arrow of history that guarantees a better future for our species. The risks we face in the upcoming years are immense. If there is a better future waiting for us, I believe it’s one we will have to fashion ourselves. Relying on an abstract concept like the arrow of progress can even be dangerous if it misleads us into forsaking our agency in fashioning our collective future.

Re: Five companies now control over 90% of the restaurant food delivery market

#343
post #28

The food industry is due for a good old opensource disruption, where each restaurant can setup their private menu hub (like you would an instagram account), add their payment processing details, and start delivering their own orders. It's a win-win for the restaurant and their recurring customers.

Worked years ago at a restaurant that had its own website and app ordering... Ubereats and the like still dominated the orders even with the 15% upcharge and even after notifying repeat customers that they can save money ordering direct The convenience of having one centralized app with one account that can summon any food from any restaurant in a 10 mile area is just way too strong.

Consider supporting lower friction payment types like apple pay/google pay or any other which the customer is likely to be already using and don't need to enter their billing details to yet another random website. Maybe you already do.

Re: Five companies now control over 90% of the restaurant food delivery market

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

mature markets end up 3-5 competitors because further mergers end up blocked. capitalism would otherwise allow them to contract to a single player. So I'm sure that's one government control that you'd agree is worthwhile.

Not at all, you see this pattern in markets that regulators ignore too. It's a human limit. You end up with 3-5 competitors because the incremental value of yet another competitor becomes nearly zero very fast. People have very strict limits on how much information about a specific market they care to remember. To even have 2-3 competitors they have to put a ton of work into differentiation and marketing, otherwise p…

I think you have OP's comment the other way around. They were saying that markets will naturally tend to fewer than 3-5 competitors, and only prevented from getting there by antitrust.

Re: Five companies now control over 90% of the restaurant food delivery market

#345
post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all, you see this pattern in markets that regulators ignore too. It's a human limit. You end up with 3-5 competitors because the incremental value of yet another competitor becomes nearly zero very fast. People have very strict limits on how much information about a specific market they care to remember. To even have 2-3 competitors they have to put a ton of work into differentiation and marketing, otherwise p…

I think you have OP's comment the other way around. They were saying that markets will naturally tend to fewer than 3-5 competitors, and only prevented from getting there by antitrust.

I think I addressed both ways around: markets naturally tend to settle on 3-5 competitors, unless blocked by regulations.

There are very few markets that are both natural monopolies and stay that way for long periods of time. Outside of things that tend to be owned by governments anyway, like road networks, I'm having a hard time thinking of any.

Re: Five companies now control over 90% of the restaurant food delivery market

#346
post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have OP's comment the other way around. They were saying that markets will naturally tend to fewer than 3-5 competitors, and only prevented from getting there by antitrust.

I think I addressed both ways around: markets naturally tend to settle on 3-5 competitors, unless blocked by regulations. There are very few markets that are both natural monopolies and stay that way for long periods of time. Outside of things that tend to be owned by governments anyway, like road networks, I'm having a hard time thinking of any.

You're right, I apologise for not reading your post carefully enough.

Whilst pure monopolies are rare, my impression is that surprisingly many markets consolidate to an oligopoly, and that this reduces competition and is generally pretty bad for the consumer.

Re: Five companies now control over 90% of the restaurant food delivery market

#347
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was born in the 80s in the UK. When I was a teenager, my family had a takeaway meal delivered every Wednesday night. My dad would ring up the restaurant, tell them the order and our address, and pay the driver when they arrived. It cost us exactly what it would cost someone going to the restaurant, plus a small 5-10% tip to the delivery driver. Most places had a delivery fee only if you live outside a certain radiu…

I really don't think that frequency was 'normal' in the UK at all. I'm a similar age and we had a takeaway maybe once a month (usually fish and chips, occasionally a curry or chinese). Meals out were a bit rarer, usually a pub but occasionally McDonalds. For the generation above mine, my grandparents on both side basically never ate takeaways unless it was fish and chips on holiday - culturally it just wasn't a thing…

Thanks for relating your experience. Wow is it hard to get any concrete figures on questions like "how many takeaways did an average household get per week in 2004". Also pretty tricky to chase down the references from the article you linked.

I found an archived copy of ref ONS2006d "Social trends No.36" here - https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20151014074...

Table 6.2 (p90) says household expenditure on restaurants and hotels went from £167b to $202b between 1991 and 2004.

Table 6.6 (p93) says that households spent an average of £11.60 per week on restaurants and cafes. Not clear if that includes takeaways.

There's an Independent article from 2006 which talks about the study, still not much about takeaways but some interesting nostalgia about the rise of gastropubs: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/britain-spe...

Mumsnet (to the rescue!) with a thread about takeaway frequencies from kids born 60s-80s. A lot of variation from "only on my birthday" to "every Saturday night": https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5031860-did-you-have-many...

I've no doubt that my own childhood was atypical in many respects. Relatively well off, only two kids, dad was a first generation immigrant so perhaps had fewer financial and cultural constraints. When I was a teenager at home from 2000-2006 the data suggests that spending on takeaways and eating out had been surging up to that point.

Either way I will always fondly remember having a donner kebab on a Wednesday evening, sat in the kitchen watching Star Trek Enterprise on the telly on its spinning turntable.

I agree with you about grandparents though. I think the closest mine would ever have gotten was a microwave meal.

Re: Five companies now control over 90% of the restaurant food delivery market

#348
post #238
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Restaurant delivery... I tend to agree. 'nonperishable food' or 'properly packed short travel' (i.e. dairy/frozen) IMO is a fairer niche of 'could be non-luxury with better societal outcomes', except for the 'as close to JIT as possible'. There's ways to optimize the process to where something on the scale of 10-20 homes could get their main groceries delivered two or 3 times a week and the overall cost would be lowe…

I totally agree in theory, in the same way I agree that Amazon delivering everything from a nearby warehouse is far more optimal than having thousands of small bookshops or random shops in prime locations. I think that's the main vision behind Travis Kalanick's CloudKitchens since he left Uber. You could order food prep for your week from a choice of menus, and the food would be prepared in an industrial kitchen for…

FWIW There's a local regional chain that does in fact operate in a way similar to what you describe with CloudKitchens.

The main difference is that in practice, you go to the store and pick up meals for the next 2-3 days (I'm fine with this FWIW) and then you select meals (this is where it fell apart, often the 'good stuff' that I could eat with my diet wasn't available). The overall quality after microwaving per instructions was 'like you got a local restaurant dish but it tasted better than if you reheated that'.

Ironically, I actually appreciated it overall, and if nothing else it was really good portion control for myself and my partner. They were healthy meals with a proper portion for a normal adult, and frankly comparing said portion vs cost to 'leftovers' from a restaurant I think it was a... not bad value prop. Our only problem was the aforementioned 'not having the stuff that was gluten free and not overly bland in stock enough'.

I think the other problem is the sort of wool over everyone's eyes, where at-home meal prep for the week can be extremely simple so long as you've got a good process to follow and are willing to make various compromises.

Re: Five companies now control over 90% of the restaurant food delivery market

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing how many Gen Z people use food delivery services on a weekly or even daily basis was mind blowing to me. I’ve had numerous conversations where I’ve had to bite my tongue when younger colleagues complained about finances after also explaining that they DoorDash dinner nearly every night. It’s bizarre. Not all Gen Z, of course. Most of the younger people I’ve worked with have been generally smart about finances.…

My coworkers stepson is the same, door dash every day then complains he has no money. Even after having finance explained to him he still doesn't get it.

[deleted]

Re: Five companies now control over 90% of the restaurant food delivery market

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing how many Gen Z people use food delivery services on a weekly or even daily basis was mind blowing to me. I’ve had numerous conversations where I’ve had to bite my tongue when younger colleagues complained about finances after also explaining that they DoorDash dinner nearly every night. It’s bizarre. Not all Gen Z, of course. Most of the younger people I’ve worked with have been generally smart about finances.…

Even the subtitle of this article basically enforces that fact: > Why is my $8 burger $23 after fees - An average reddit user As you say, it's a private taxi for your burrito. When you factor in the labor costs, gas/car maint costs, and the amortized cost of providing the service, it's hard to see why anyone would think $15 for an on-demand delivery in a major urban area is abnormal.

I still find it hard to see. Urban areas should have a high density of orders and a low number of miles per delivery trip.

I asked Claude AI to run a marginal cost analysis of food delivery, taking driver salaries etc.. into account and separately considering third-party platform vs restaurant direct. The answer came out at around £2 per order (in the UK). The artefact is published here for anyone to view: https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/4827ebef-9208-4cdb-8e9c-7...

I got it to rerun the analysis for the US and it's pretty much the same: https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/5b56e048-7af7-4b6c-8054-5...

My suspicion is that apps like Deliveroo, Uber Eats etc.. are ramping up their prices now that they have moats and market share.

Post reply on HN