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Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

thecity.nyc

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Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#341

Post by RandomBacon »

Tadpole9181 wrote: post #328
RandomBacon wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hope it's not against the rules to swear Perhaps then, you should go ahead and read the rules? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Sorry, I was being rhetorical for emphasis. And as a slight acknowledgement of HN's more recent flag-happy state.

No problem. I also acknowledge that some people find the expectation that they should read rules offensive and worthy of downvotes as my previous comment was downvoted by someone else (and I'm okay with this comment also being downvoted because talking ("complaining") about such is against the rules lol).

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#342

Post by blindriver »

Juliate wrote: post #267
blindriver wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes a simple google to figure out that you are incorrect. If an arrest warrant exists, police need to produce an arrest warrant as soon as possible but not at time of arrest.

How does the police _justify_ the arrest then, to the ones being arrested, their family, and to their counsel? How do those know what happens next, and where? You know, basic questions, even more critical in a democracy. You cannot force a citizen without a legal reason to do so. If you don't have a warrant (or a legitimate reason at the time of arrest), you're legally naked.

Nothing about what you said matters. The police are legally allowed to arrest a person without presenting an arrest warrant, if the arrest warrant exists. Then after they are brought to jail, they will present to warrant to the person arrested or their counsel. The family is owed no information from the police. That's not how it works.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#343

Post by lmm »

ben_w wrote: post #339
lmm wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that, much like those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable, those who make decent, reasonable immigration enforcement impossible make vicious immigration enforcement inevitable. No doubt the pendulum will swing too hard and too far, and ordinary decent people will pay the price. But when one side is even now still taking the position that you can't deport people who just…

> No doubt the pendulum will swing too hard and too far, and ordinary decent people will pay the price. It has swung, and they are *already paying* the price. That's the question. > I can't blame the other side for sending in the goon squad to crack heads. Even when it's your own head? Given the complexity of the system, it's implausible that any immigrant, including you (or I in Germany) have done everything perfect…

> It has swung, and they are already paying the price. That's the question.

Yes and no. It's polarised, far too polarised. I hope we can deescalate and reach some reasonable middle ground. But that's going to require a lot of concessions from the left that I don't see any hint of willingness to make.

> it's worse than that, as people in the USA are currently facing removal for writing things on the internet which are theoretically constitutionally protected free speech.

Meh, that's a big nothingburger. Noncitizens have never had constitutional rights or at least not for decades. I don't like it but let's not pretend this is some radical change.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#344

Post by tacticalturtle »

BobaFloutist wrote: post #308
tacticalturtle wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a lot we don’t know about the composition of the group here. The Trump administration has been routinely embedding other agencies like the FBI in ICE operations: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/ice-oper... Impeding federal law enforcement officers is a crime - to which other federal officers (not sure about ICE) have the ability to make an arrest.

Does asking for confirmation that you're a federal agent with the power to detain/arrest constitute impeding? Because I hope you see how that's a bad path to go down. Yes, you're required to comply with law enforcement. But if you're required to comply with unidentified law enforcement, we're gonna have problems.

That’s not what happened here though.

In the video I saw, Lander wasn’t asking the agents to prove that they were law enforcement. He was asking if they had a judicial warrant to detain the person he was holding onto. He did seem to believe they were law enforcement.

The problem is, ICE doesn’t need a judicial warrant to detain someone suspected of immigration offenses in a public space. Lander didn’t seem to know this, or at least feigned ignorance.

What do you do with someone who doesn’t know the law, and is actively interfering with a planned arrest? Briefly detaining them seems like a reasonable path to get the job done.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#345

Post by ben_w »

lmm wrote: post #343
ben_w wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No doubt the pendulum will swing too hard and too far, and ordinary decent people will pay the price. It has swung, and they are *already paying* the price. That's the question. > I can't blame the other side for sending in the goon squad to crack heads. Even when it's your own head? Given the complexity of the system, it's implausible that any immigrant, including you (or I in Germany) have done everything perfect…

> It has swung, and they are already paying the price. That's the question. Yes and no. It's polarised, far too polarised. I hope we can deescalate and reach some reasonable middle ground. But that's going to require a lot of concessions from the left that I don't see any hint of willingness to make. > it's worse than that, as people in the USA are currently facing removal for writing things on the internet which are…

> Meh, that's a big nothingburger. Noncitizens have never had constitutional rights or at least not for decades. I don't like it but let's not pretend this is some radical change.

That's the first I've heard of it. Everyone else is saying it covers everyone in the USA, including the courts who ruled that kicking people out for blogging was unconstitutional and ordering the release of the people the US government had arrested: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.njd.564...

and: https://time.com/7284578/judge-orders-release-of-rumeysa-ozt...

But again, as you've not answered the "Even when it's your own head?" part, I remind you that you earlier wrote:

> I'm an immigrant and a minority myself, not that people like you ever actually care about supporting people like me.

I had assumed you were living in the USA, until checking your github account, so now I assume you're in Japan.

Please, imagine it is your own head that is the target of, in your own words, "the goon squad to crack heads".

What's happening today in the USA can happen anywhere, including where you live. (And where I live, but around here you can trip and fall over Stolperstein to be reminded of that latter part).

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#346

Post by soco »

apparent wrote: post #303
soco wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, asking to see the warrant is impeding a federal enforcement action? Like, following laws or rules is impeding action?

I don't think that's what they were referring to. From watching the video, I assume it was when he grabbed onto the fellow they were detaining and refused to let go.

Isn't an unwarranted action entitling you to resistance? I'm not american, so maybe you all know the answer...

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#347

Post by Juliate »

blindriver wrote: post #342
Juliate wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does the police _justify_ the arrest then, to the ones being arrested, their family, and to their counsel? How do those know what happens next, and where? You know, basic questions, even more critical in a democracy. You cannot force a citizen without a legal reason to do so. If you don't have a warrant (or a legitimate reason at the time of arrest), you're legally naked.

Nothing about what you said matters. The police are legally allowed to arrest a person without presenting an arrest warrant, if the arrest warrant exists. Then after they are brought to jail, they will present to warrant to the person arrested or their counsel. The family is owed no information from the police. That's not how it works.

Thanks for exemplifying the problem: the culture of might over right (I don't know if you realise how deep the "nothing about what you said matters" runs).

The family is totally owed information from the police and the state. That's exactly how it must work in a free, democratic society.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#348

Post by apparent »

soco wrote: post #346
apparent wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's what they were referring to. From watching the video, I assume it was when he grabbed onto the fellow they were detaining and refused to let go.

Isn't an unwarranted action entitling you to resistance? I'm not american, so maybe you all know the answer...

If you witness police misconduct, you do not have the right to impede the police. Regardless, there was no way for him to form an accurate belief about whether misconduct was occurring. The agents have no duty to provide a warrant to a bystander, even if he is a government official.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#349

Post by lmm »

ben_w wrote: post #345
lmm wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It has swung, and they are already paying the price. That's the question. Yes and no. It's polarised, far too polarised. I hope we can deescalate and reach some reasonable middle ground. But that's going to require a lot of concessions from the left that I don't see any hint of willingness to make. > it's worse than that, as people in the USA are currently facing removal for writing things on the internet which are…

> Meh, that's a big nothingburger. Noncitizens have never had constitutional rights or at least not for decades. I don't like it but let's not pretend this is some radical change. That's the first I've heard of it. Everyone else is saying it covers everyone in the USA, including the courts who ruled that kicking people out for blogging was unconstitutional and ordering the release of the people the US government had…

> That's the first I've heard of it. Everyone else is saying it covers everyone in the USA, including the courts who ruled that kicking people out for blogging was unconstitutional and ordering the release of the people the US government had arrested

People care about constitutional rights when it suits their politics, but unreasonable searches at the border have been standard for decades, under multiple administrations from both parties.

> Please, imagine it is your own head that is the target of, in your own words, "the goon squad to crack heads".

> What's happening today in the USA can happen anywhere, including where you live.

As an immigrant I don't have any rights, I can't even vote. Like it or not, that's part of the tradeoff.

But being realistic, I feel a lot safer, in part because Japan has quite strict immigration enforcement. It doesn't (yet, touch wood) have the US' dramatic polarisation and two-party split; rather there is a strong social consensus and a strong rule of law. And having seen how much crime and antisocial behaviour many of my fellow immigrants are responsible for, I'd far rather have that than the alternative. Yes, I don't want to be on the end of the riot squad getting sent in. But I think the best way to avoid that is to not get to the state of affairs where it makes sense to send in the riot squad.

Re: Brad Lander detained by masked federal agents inside immigration court

#350

Post by judahmeek »

apparent wrote: post #348
soco wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't an unwarranted action entitling you to resistance? I'm not american, so maybe you all know the answer...

If you witness police misconduct, you do not have the right to impede the police. Regardless, there was no way for him to form an accurate belief about whether misconduct was occurring. The agents have no duty to provide a warrant to a bystander, even if he is a government official.

> If you witness police misconduct, you do not have the right to impede the police.

Wrong. There is a moral right to impede unjust authority.

> The agents have no duty to provide a warrant to a bystander, even if he is a government official.

So you're ignoring the fact that the officers didn't show a warrant to anyone, including the individuals they seized?

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