Live data from Hacker News

My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

fly.io

341–350 of 1001 posts

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#341

The argument seems to be that for an expert programmer, who is capable of reading and understanding AI agent code output and merging it into a codebase, AI agents are great. Question: If everyone uses AI to code, how does someone become an expert capable of carefully reading and understanding code and acting as an editor to an AI? The expert skills needed to be an editor -- reading code, understanding its implication…

I've had a lot of success using LLMs to deepen my understanding of topics. Give them an argument, and have them give the best points against it. Consider them, iterate. Argue against it and let it counter. It's a really good rubber duck

> The expert skills... currently come from long experience writing code

Do they? Is it the writing that's important? Or is it the thinking that goes along with it? What's stopping someone from going through LLM output, going back and forth on design decisions with the LLM, and ultimately making the final choice of how the tool should mold the codebase after seeing the options

I mean of course this requires some proactive effort on your part.. but it always did

The key point I think though is to not outsource your thinking. You can't blindly trust the output. It's a modern search engine

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#342

Hmm a bit of a tone shift from: https://fly.io/docs/about/open-source/ > Fly.io builds on the work of a tremendous open source infrastructure community. We want open source authors to benefit from their work because we think a healthy, thriving open source ecosystem will help us build better products. To the fine article: > Meanwhile, software developers spot code fragments seemingly lifted from public repositories o…

Imho, the fly.io people are largely performative HN attention seekers that practice writing posts to produce engagement. It's almost charming in the way it resembles the early-on blogosphere, and you should read them as token summaries of "this is a popular sentiment right now, framed to appear a bit wise and edgy". They're often wordy versions of "that one trick they don't want you to know" or "am I really the only one that [actually quite popular thing]".

In the sense that the posts distill whatever HN at the time would accept as thought leadership it's a good pulse check on the community.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#343
post #3

Machine translation and speech recognition. The state of the art for these is a multi-modal language model. I'm hearing impaired veering on deaf, and I use this technology all day every day. I wanted to watch an old TV series from the 1980s. There are no subtitles available. So I fed the show into a language model (Whisper) and now I have passable subtitles that allow me to watch the show. Am I the only one who remem…

I started watching Leverage, the TV show, on Amazon, and the subtitles in the early series are clearly AI generated or just bad by default.

I use subtitles because I don’t want to micromanage the volume on my TV when adverts are forced on me and they are 100x louder than than what I was watching.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#344
I so strongly agree with this.

I've never been a completionist. I'm distracted. I like novelty. I make half-form experiments, but mostly provide deeply immersive conversations for the benefit of a small group of people around me, some of whom go on to make/do things that I proudly feel my influence on. The final 10% of work often defeated me.

Now, I just make it happen. The pain is gone. Something else can carry the last 10%, and my ideas get realized by me (and AI).

I can't even conceive how this will change the world en masse. Knowledge domains (not just tech, but science, art, etc) have been built of the things that the type-A completionists knew how to see. The others didn't finish, and what they saw of the world has largely been marginalized.

The mind of ADHD and creative types is about to get much more represented in the output products of civilisation. This is going to be a big recalibration, and I think a re-balancing toward something more healthy tbh

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#345
people do not believe AI is fad because of NFT mania. we believe LLMs are a fad because they're over-hyped and they under-deliver. just my $0.02. note that i didn't say "AI is Bullshit." but I will say some of the AI hype is bullshit. and one thing i've noticed is there are so many caveats for making accurate statements about LLMs, it's hard to make short statements that aren't wrong (unless you have all those exceptions and caveats.)

come at me.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#346
I agree with the main take in this article: the combination of agents + LLMs with large context windows + a large budget of tokens to iterate on problems can probably already yield some impressive results.

I take serious issue with the "but you have no idea what the code is" rebuttal, since it - to me - skims over the single largest issue with applying LLMs anywhere where important decisions will be made based on their outputs.

To quote from the article:

  People complain about LLM-generated code being 
  “probabilistic”. No it isn’t. 
  It’s code. It’s not Yacc output. It’s knowable. The LLM 
  might be stochastic. But the LLM doesn’t matter. What 
  matters is whether you can make sense of the result, and 
  whether your guardrails hold.

  Reading other people’s code is part of the job. If you can’t metabolize the 
  boring, repetitive code an LLM generates: skills issue! How are you handling the 
  chaos human developers turn out on a deadline?
The problem here is that LLMs are optimized to make their outputs convincing. The issue is exactly "whether you can make sense of the result", as the author said, or, in other words: whether you're immune to being conned by a model output that sounds correct but is not. Sure, "reading other people’s code is part of the job", but the failure modes of junior engineers are easily detectable. The failure modes of LLMs are not.

EDIT: formatting

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#347
post #174

> It’s projection. People say “LLMs can’t code” when what they really mean is “LLMs can’t write Rust”. Fair enough! But people select languages in part based on how well LLMs work with them, so Rust people should get on that. How is it the responsibility of the Rust community that there weren't enough metric tons of free code for the machine to slurp up? And the phrasing makes it sound like it's the community's fault…

Is the problem with LLMs and Rust really a problem with the training data or a problem with it being harder to get something to compile in Rust? I presume its easier to get something to compile in the dynamically typed languages, and then slightly more difficult in statically typed languages and then a step up with Rust which also forces you to deal with the lifetime of objects. But maybe with LLMs its different and they can do static typing easier than dynamic but they just really struggle with structuring a program to properly deal with ownership.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#349

I use AI every day, basically as a "pair coder." I used it about 15 minutes ago, to help me diagnose a UI issue I was having. It gave me an answer that I would have figured out, in about 30 minutes, in about 30 seconds. My coding style (large files, with multiple classes, well-documented) works well for AI. I can literally dump the entire file into the prompt, and it can scan it in milliseconds. I also use it to help…

I use it as a SO stand in as well.

What I like about Chatbots vs SO is the ability to keep a running conversation instead of 3+ tabs and tuning the specificity toward my problem.

I've also noticed that if I look up my same question on SO I often find the source code the LLM copied. My fear is that if chatbots kill SO where will the LLM's copied code come from in the future?

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#350
> Meanwhile, software developers spot code fragments seemingly lifted from public repositories on Github and lose their shit. What about the licensing? If you’re a lawyer, I defer. But if you’re a software developer playing this card? Cut me a little slack as I ask you to shove this concern up your ass. No profession has demonstrated more contempt for intellectual property.

This kind of guilt-by-association play might be the most common fallacy in internet discourse. None of us are allowed to express outrage at the bulk export of GitHub repos with zero regard for their copyleft status because some members of the software engineering community are large-scale pirates? How is that a reasonable argument to make?

The most obvious problem with this is it's a faulty generalization. Many of us aren't building large-scale piracy sites of any sort. Many of us aren't bulk downloading media of any kind. The author has no clue whether the individual humans making the IP argument against AI are engaged in piracy, so this is an extremely weak way to reject that line of argument.

The second huge problem with this argument is that it assumes that support for IP rights is a blanket yes/no question, which it's obviously not. I can believe fervently that SciHub is a public good and Elsevier is evil and at the same time believe that copyleft licenses placed by a collective of developers on their work should be respected and GitHub was evil to steal their code. Indeed, these two ideas will probably occur together more often than not because they're both founded in the idea that IP law should be used to protect individuals from corporations rather than the other way around.

The author has some valid points, but dismissing this entire class of arguments so flippantly is intellectually lazy.

Post reply on HN