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Human coders are still better than LLMs

antirez.com

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Re: Human coders are still better than LLMs

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet you are working on your own replacement, while your colleagues are taking the prudent approach.

Do you want to work with LLMs or H1Bs and interns… choose wisely. Personally I’m thrilled that I can get trivial, one-off programs developed for a few cents and the cost of a clear written description of the problem. Engaging internal developers or consulting developers to do anything at all is a horrible experience. I would waste weeks on politics, get no guarantees, and waste thousands of dollars and still hear non…

You can work with consulting oriented engineers who get shit done with relatively little stress and significant productivity. Productivity enhanced by AI but not replaced by it. If interested, reach out to me.

Re: Human coders are still better than LLMs

#342
post #212
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, how much of coding is really never done before? And secondly, what you say are false (at least if taken literally). I can create a new programming language, give the definition of it in the prompt, ask it to code something in my language, and expect something out. It might even work.

> I can create a new programming language, give the definition of it in the prompt, ask it to code something in my language, and expect something out. It might even work. I literally just pointed out the same time without having seen your comment. Second this. I've done this several times, and it can handle it well. Already GPT3.5 could easily reason about hypothetical languages given a grammar or a loose description…

Second, how much of commenting is really never done before?

Re: Human coders are still better than LLMs

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When talking with reasonable people When talking with reasonable people, they will tell you if they don't understand what you're saying. When talking with reasonable people, they will tell you if they don't know the answer or if they are unsure about their answer. LLMs do none of that. They will very happily, and very confidently, spout complete bullshit at you. It is essentially a lotto draw as to whether the answ…

You can use prompts to fix some of these problematic tendencies.

Yes you can, but it almost never works

Re: Human coders are still better than LLMs

#344
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LLMs will still be this way 10 years from now. But IDK if somebody won't create something new that gets better. But there is no reason at all to extrapolate our current AIs into something that solves programing. Whatever constraints that new thing will have will be completely unrelated to the current ones.

Stating this without any arguments is not very convincing. Perhaps you remember that language models were completely useless at coding some years ago, and now they can do quite a lot of things, even if they are not perfect. That is progress, and that does give reason to extrapolate. Unless of course you mean something very special with "solving programming".

> Perhaps you remember that language models were completely useless at coding some years ago, and now they can do quite a lot of things, even if they are not perfect.

IMO, they're still useless today, with the only progress being that they can produce a more convincing facade of usefulness. I wouldn't call that very meaningful progress.

Re: Human coders are still better than LLMs

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't claim that. They say LLMs only generate text someone has written. Another way you could refute their premise was by showing the existence of AI-created programs for which someone isn't a valid description of the writer (e.g., from evolutionary algorithms) then training a network on that data such that it can output it. It is just as trivial a way to prove that the premise is false. Your claim here is sligh…

I think it's not just token support, it's also having a understanding of certain concepts that allows you to arrive at new points like C, D, E, etc. But LLM's don't have an understanding of things, they are statistical models that predict what statistically is most likely following the input that you give it. But that that will always be based on already existing data that is fed into the model. It can produce "new"…

> it can't "think" of something entirety conceptionally new, because it doesn't really "think".

Hierarchical optimization (fast global + slow local) is a precise, implementable notion of "thinking." Whenever I've seen this pattern implemented, humans, without being told to do so by others in some forced way, seem to converge on the use of verb think to describe the operation. I think you need to blacklist the term think and avoid using it altogether if you want to think clearly about this subject, because you are allowing confusion in your use of language to come between you and understanding the mathematical objects that are under discussion.

> It can produce "new" stuff only by combining the "old" stuff in new ways,

False premise; previously debunked. Here is a refutation for you anyway, but made more extreme. Instead of modeling the language task using a pre-training predictive dataset objective, only train on a provided reward model. Such a setup never technically shows "old" stuff to the AI, because the AI is never shown stuff explicitly. It just always generates new things and then the reward model judges how well it did. Clearly, the fact that it can do generation while knowing nothing, shows that your claim that it can never generate something new -- by definition everything would be new at this point -- is clearly false. Notice that as it continually generates new things and the judgements occur, it will learn concepts.

> But LLM's don't have an understanding of things, they are statistical models that predict what statistically is most likely following the input that you give it.

Try out Jayne's Probability Theory: The Logic Of Science. Within it the various underpinning assumptions that lead to probability theory are shown to be very reasonable and normal and obviously good. Stuff like represent plausibility with real numbers, keep rankings consistent and transitive, reduce to Boolean logic at certainty, and update so you never accept a Dutch-book sure-loss -- which together force the ordinary sum and product rules of probability. Then notice that statistics is in a certain sense just what happens when you apply the rules of probability.

> also having a understanding of certain concepts that allows you to arrive at new points like C, D, E, etc. But LLM's don't have an understanding of things

This is also false. Look into the line of research that tends to go by the name of Circuits. Its been found that models have spaces within their weights that do correspond with concepts. Probably you don't understand what concepts are -- that abstractions and concepts are basically forms of compression that let you treat different things as the same thing -- so a different way to arrive at knowing that this would be true is to consider a dataset with less parameters than there are items in the dataset and notice that the model must successfully compress the dataset in order to complete its objective.

Re: Human coders are still better than LLMs

#347
post #268
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They will also not be offended or harbor ill will when you completely reject their "pull request" and rephrase the requirements.

They will also keep going in circles when you rephrase the requirements, unless with every prompt you keep adding to it and mentioning everything they've already suggested that got rejected. While humans occasionally also do this (hey, short memories), LLMs are infuriatingly more prone to it. A typical interaction with an LLM: "Hey, how do I do X in Y?" "That's a great question! A good way to do X in Y is Z!" "No, Z…

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Re: Human coders are still better than LLMs

#348
post #23

If an LLM just finds patterns, is it even possible for an LLM to be GOOD at anything? Doesn't that mean at best it will be average?

Humans are also almost always operating on patterns. This is why "experience" matters a lot. Very few people are doing truly cutting edge stuff - we call them visionaries. But most of the time, we're just merely doing what's expected And yes, that includes this comment. This wasnt creative or an original thought at all. I'm sure hundreds of people have had similar thought, and I'm probably parroting someone else's id…

The times we just operate on patterns is when we code boilerplate or just very commonly written code. There's value in speeding this up and LLMs help here.

But generally speaking I don't experience programming like that most of the time. There are so many things going on that have nothing to do with pattern matching while coding.

I load up a working model of the running code in my head and explore what it should be doing in a more abstract/intangible way and then I translate those thoughts to code. In some cases I see the code in my inner eye, in others I have to focus quite a lot or even move around or talk.

My mind goes to different places and experiences. Sometimes it's making new connections, sometimes it's processing a bit longer to get a clearer picture, sometimes it re-shuffles priorities. A radical context switch may happen at any time and I delete a lot of code because I found a much simpler solution.

I think that's a qualitative, insurmountable difference between an LLM and an actual programmer. The programmer thinks deeply about the running program and not just the text that needs to be written.

There might be different types of "thinking" that we can put into a computer in order to automate these kinds of tasks reliably and efficiently. But just pattern matching isn't it.

Re: Human coders are still better than LLMs

#349
The context required to write real software is just way too big for LLMs. Software is the business, codified. How is an LLM supposed to know about all the rules in all the departments plus all the special agreements promised to customers by the sales team?

Right now the scope of what an LLM can solve is pretty generic and focused. Anytime more than a class or two is involved or if the code base is more than 20 or 30 files, then even the best LLMs start to stray and lose focus. They can't seem to keep a train of thought which leads to churning way too much code.

If LLMs are going to replace real developers, they will need to accept significantly more context, they will need a way to gather context from the business at large, and some way to persist a train of thought across the life of a codebase.

I'll start to get nervous when these problems are close to being solved.

Re: Human coders are still better than LLMs

#350
post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you actually mean to say AI Vibrators ?

Give it 3 months. There will be an AI Vibrator on the market, if there isn't one already.

I just found this MCP integration, but unfortunately I don't have a device I can test it on - https://github.com/ConAcademy/buttplug-mcp
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