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Duolingo CEO tries to walk back AI-first comments, fails

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Re: Duolingo CEO tries to walk back AI-first comments, fails

#341

Post by vendiddy »

rchaud wrote: post #269
a0123 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do think AI could be a better language tutor than an average language teacher, but I don't think Duolingo's approach is very effective. No offense, I can tell you're neither a linguist nor a language teacher. This is one are where the human input is invaluable and irreplaceable. Because language (the complex kind) is inherently human. It quite literally is.

A lot people on HN got their early programming chops from Stack Overflow and spotty internet tutorials, and have made the mistake of thinking that everything else can also be learned this way.

I'm describing how I learned Spanish.

Spanish is not a programming language.

Re: Duolingo CEO tries to walk back AI-first comments, fails

#342

Post by vendiddy »

dotancohen wrote: post #55
vendiddy wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think AI could be a better language tutor than an average language teacher, but I don't think Duolingo's approach is very effective. The ideal AI-powered tutor would work more closely to a private language tutor. It would speak with you and gradually integrating language concepts into the conversation. When you make mistakes, it could correct you on the spot and keep track of where your strengths and weaknesses…

You should look at HelloTalk. It's real people communicating in each others' language. Unbelievably great service, almost as good as sitting down to a coffee with someone. Actually, in some ways better. HelloTalk has a "correct the other person's sentence" feature that shows an inline diff, yet it's simple enough for people who have never heard the term diff.

That sounds interesting. Thanks for the recommendation!

Re: Duolingo CEO tries to walk back AI-first comments, fails

#343

Post by vendiddy »

astromoose wrote: post #88
vendiddy wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think AI could be a better language tutor than an average language teacher, but I don't think Duolingo's approach is very effective. The ideal AI-powered tutor would work more closely to a private language tutor. It would speak with you and gradually integrating language concepts into the conversation. When you make mistakes, it could correct you on the spot and keep track of where your strengths and weaknesses…

Correction is not always desirable. The goal in learning a language is rarely to be grammatically "correct" in the language, but rather to communicate. And communication doesn't need perfect grammar. When I was working as language teacher, I was tasked specifically with teaching speaking. I would often use information gap activities. These are activities where two or more parties have pieces of information but need t…

I may have used the term loosely.

When I was learning Spanish, the other person I was speaking to would simply repeat what I was trying to say in Spanish.

It wasn't always nitpicking my grammar. In many cases it was predicting what I was struggling to say.

I would have loved to be in your class because it sounds a lot more focused on practical conversation than my first language class!

Re: Duolingo CEO tries to walk back AI-first comments, fails

#344

Post by username135 »

mzs wrote: post #339
username135 wrote: post #286

The app has gone down hill but i still use it because i cant find any decent Irish programs elsewhere. I dont mind the gamification but can see why its annoying. Once I fond a suitable replacement, i will cancel my membership. I will say this, ive learned quite a lot of the language simply through the app. I am highly motivated though.

Watch these over and over for a month: https://youtu.be/496H4TdJIiw

Thanks!

Re: Duolingo CEO tries to walk back AI-first comments, fails

#345

Post by smcin »

telchior wrote: post #123
namenumber wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got started on Duolingo back when it was still a "Help translate the world" app. I've always liked it for getting to dip my toes in a language and learn some basics whilst exploring the language myself through other methods, and I've shown my support of it by paying for Duolingo Super or whatever they're calling it for years on end whilst hopping on and off my language tracks. But it's just so horrible now, constan…

When I returned to Duolingo recently -- I used to use it heavily but set it aside for 2 years -- I counted 14 gamification popups in a row after my first lesson in a new language. 14! The damned popups lasted longer than the lesson had! I switched over to Busuu, which has blatantly copied some of Duolingo's mechanics but at least uses them with a modicum of restraint.

Yes, the popups/gamification/forced ads/social nags are hugely annoying and eat up the useful time in a (say) 15min learning session . Not excusing them, but you can turn off some but not all of the popups/gamification/forced ads/social nags, as an opt-out. But still an awful antipattern as defaults.

Re: Duolingo CEO tries to walk back AI-first comments, fails

#346

Post by smcin »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #303
hintymad wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In 2023, Duolingo's marketcap was 5x of Coursera Maybe this is because Coursera requires a lot more effort? My pessimistic view is that most people do not like learning, let alone learning in their leisure time with their own bucks. On the other hand, Duolingo gives more people the false impression that it's easy to learn a new language. And check out their math and chess program. They are really really easy, like…

> My pessimistic view is that most people do not like learning, let alone learning in their leisure time with their own bucks. Sadly, I have come to the same conclusion. I have been training and giving seminars for ages. I don’t think that I’m the world’s best teacher, but I’m not that bad. Geeks can be fun to teach, because they actually enjoy learning. It’s really a fundamental requirement for our industry. Non-gee…

> Geeks can be fun to teach, because they actually enjoy learning... Non-geeks; not so much.

I think it's nowhere near as simple or binary as that... there's a whole individual(/group) psychology of useful gamification, it's not all dark patterns. I found this out before and during Covid when me and five people I know were trying to gamify our motivation for exercise/weight loss/daily steps/cardio/toning; then 2020 and Covid set fire to the entire field. Exercise/weight loss are obviously different to learning CS, but here's what I learned:

- some people like to set a private individual goal and measure their individual progess towards it, even(/especially) if outsiders can't see what it is ("X has 45% progress toward their weight-loss goal and 56% toward their cardio goal.")

- ...or just directly quote times for e.g. 1 mile run, 4 mile walk etc.

- some people love the social-media/blogging aspect of sharing within a defined group photos or daily diary of their activity. MyFitnessPal's social features

- some people like taking the drudgery or loneliness out of solo exercise, such as listening to audiobooks/podcasts, or apps like 'Zombies, Run!' or 'The Outbreak' which turn your walks into a survival adventure.

- some people like the leaderboard or group dynamic of smack-talk or one-upping their friends (e.g. Stridekick app, but it's $ beyond the free intro period, and it has terrible power consumption)

- some people like setting food/drink reward goals: walk/run/row/ski X miles to earn a beer/burger/donut/etc.

- apps like Strava are for hardcore athletes in a single sport, not suited to the general public, you can't say "This week I want to burn Y,000 calories" then achieve that that multimodally across walking, workout, fitness class, dance, running/cycling, swimming, carrying shopping home etc.

- some people really like a shared goal e.g. "this week our group will walk 25,000 steps"

- some people like the daily nag/reminder/motivator to (configurable) do their walk after lunch, evening workout etc. (smartphone/bracelet/watch knows when you've done them), or not break a streak

- some people like to motivate by donating (or wagering) for a good cause if they do/don't meet your goals/beat their partner

- I forget the name of the app that each week partnered you up with a different stranger and you had to try to beat them (Challenges/Strive/?)

- Fooducate is good for gaming nutrition and shopping, and has freemium add-ons for specific diet/exercise plans

- some people (esp. the smartwatch brigade) like measuring how exercise and diet affect/improve sleep quality

- and so on.

Re: Duolingo CEO tries to walk back AI-first comments, fails

#347

Post by smcin »

cogman10 wrote: post #71
Sanzig wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Duolingo is really only useful at the A1/A2 levels anyway. Once you reach B1, you're pretty much past the point where the vocab and grammar basics from Duolingo is useful and you need to move on to other activities (watching TV in your target language, having conversations with native speakers, reading books in your target language, etc).

Early on, the Duolingo stated goals was to teach language to the point where it's learners could ultimately start translating documents. They were going to sell cheap mechanical turk style translation services. (Think captcha style translation) Unfortunately as they got popular automated translation services got good enough that nobody was going to pay for a slightly better and slower translation enmass. Once that ha…

I started using DL in 2019 and it was then still very much a respectable language-learning app for semi-casual users up to CEFR A1/A2/B1/B2 standard, with good user-contributed community forums (they killed those 3/2022, so they could milk them with AI to resell as an add-on - for me that act was the jump-the-shark telltale). Don't know about the goal of translating documents but that's something they'd want to pivot away from to get beyond a tiny niche audience. Some gamification and user evangeliation is good and necessary (users should be able to turn it off). If nothing else, DL's antipattern whenever they eventually crash will show limits on how far it can be pushed in the name of $$$ growth hacking. Meanwhile, bona-fide langage learners are jumping ship off DL. (Analogously, what is the point when Zynga/FB games Candy Crush/FarmVille/MafiaWars stopped being cool? or Pokemon Go? Ingress?) How much of the stickiness is from the thing being inherently hooked, vs the social competition agaonst your friends?

Re: Duolingo CEO tries to walk back AI-first comments, fails

#348

Post by Zmajche »

sandinmyjoints wrote: post #313
Zmajche wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone mentioned on r/DuoLingo so I installed in order to try it. My biggest problem with it was the UI and lack of options to configure it. I would really like options to make fonts and buttons bigger. Altough I changed phone font size in order to use app, small height of buttons on the bottom are really getting on my nerves.

I'll pass this along! Since you mentioned installing, I'm assuming this was an app, not web. Android or iOS?

Android App via PlayStore...
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