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German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

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Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deliberately putting in less than the asked for effort in an attempt to extract more pay for less work is theft in the same way that attempting to minimize pay and maximize effort is "wage theft". It's a knife that cuts both ways. If companies attempting to maximally exploit their employee's time is wage theft, so too is an employee's attempt to get a paycheck without doing work.

Right, but it's not - because salary paid workers are not paid for their time spent, but rather for their quantity and quality of work. Which is up to employers to measure. Me spending 5 minutes filling up my water is not stealing. Me taking a nice 15 minute walk is also not stealing. Presumably you're going to draw the line somewhere, but the implication of salary jobs is that productivity is not linear. Me spending…

When I say "less work", I'm intentionally not specifying how the work output is measured, because, as you say, it's different for salaried vs hourly employees (and those are only the two most common forms!)

However, the point still remains! Moving the goalposts--or trying to motte-and-bailey the difference between salaried and hourly--is just intellectually dishonest, and doesn't really counter my argument at all.

If you want to refer to salaried employees specifically, then yes, "less work" means "consistently getting less done than is asked for on the timescale expected of you". But my argument still holds! This is something I've personally witnessed a handful of co-workers do. You're not wrong that it's up to employers to measure, but part of that measurement relies on trust between the employee and employer.

What you're implicitly arguing for is a complete lack of trust, which leads to an entirely different set of workplace problems

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#342
post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that a case for a performance improvement plan or disciplinary review then? Sounds more like bad management to me.

Sure, but there's inherent latency between detecting the bad behavior and punishing it. Sometimes that latency is infinite, as tends to be the case in many government jobs. It's not just a "bad management" issue, and trying to blame it entirely on the company is just as bullshit as blaming it entirely on the worker.

> If an employee completes all the work assigned to them

The criterion is very clear for the point I'm making. Either you completed the work that was assigned or you didn't.

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but it's not - because salary paid workers are not paid for their time spent, but rather for their quantity and quality of work. Which is up to employers to measure. Me spending 5 minutes filling up my water is not stealing. Me taking a nice 15 minute walk is also not stealing. Presumably you're going to draw the line somewhere, but the implication of salary jobs is that productivity is not linear. Me spending…

When I say "less work", I'm intentionally not specifying how the work output is measured, because, as you say, it's different for salaried vs hourly employees (and those are only the two most common forms!) However, the point still remains! Moving the goalposts--or trying to motte-and-bailey the difference between salaried and hourly--is just intellectually dishonest, and doesn't really counter my argument at all. If…

> What you're implicitly arguing for is a complete lack of trust, which leads to an entirely different set of workplace problems

This is already the current situation. This is why your computer is monitored and you badge in.

And, on the topic of badging in, the reason we do this is because measuring output is hard, and company's are lazy. Measuring time is easy, so they just use that as a proxy for output.

That's why a good worker being 15 minutes late every day will eventually get fired, but a bad worker sitting around on his phone will not.

Is this is a good way to measure output? Of course not, it's pretty much the most naive and simplistic way you can do it. But it's the most popular method chosen, so, here we are.

Look, getting less work done than is expected of you relies on knowing that expectation, which you don't. Has it occurred to you that those "stealing" might just legitimately think that they ARE doing what's expected of them? I mean, they're doing it... and they're employed... so what's the expectation?

At the end of the day it would be nice to all hold hands and sing kumbaya. But ultimately, we are all trying to do the least stuff we need to do to get results. Companies are putting in the absolute least amount of effort to measuring performance, and employees are putting in the least effort to get their job done. So, it seems fair to me, and I don't think anyone is stealing.

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I say "less work", I'm intentionally not specifying how the work output is measured, because, as you say, it's different for salaried vs hourly employees (and those are only the two most common forms!) However, the point still remains! Moving the goalposts--or trying to motte-and-bailey the difference between salaried and hourly--is just intellectually dishonest, and doesn't really counter my argument at all. If…

> What you're implicitly arguing for is a complete lack of trust, which leads to an entirely different set of workplace problems This is already the current situation. This is why your computer is monitored and you badge in. And, on the topic of badging in, the reason we do this is because measuring output is hard, and company's are lazy. Measuring time is easy, so they just use that as a proxy for output. That's why…

> This is already the current situation. This is why your computer is monitored and you badge in.

But it's not, and I'm not?

I haven't ever worked under these conditions, and I've worked a handful of jobs over close to 20 years. I'm always confused when people like yourself make these sweeping statements, given I've never once encountered them.

I know I haven't encountered them because I've witnessed coworkers at a few of those jobs do fuck all all day and never get in trouble for it. Their computers clearly weren't being monitored, because they used them to work on personal projects all day.

> That's why a good worker being 15 minutes late every day will eventually get fired, but a bad worker sitting around on his phone will not.

I've had coworkers very infrequently show up to work and just "work from home" while still getting nothing done, so again, my lived experience contradicts your absolute statements? Maybe I'm just not working the same kinds of jobs you are?

> Is this is a good way to measure output? Of course not, it's pretty much the most naive and simplistic way you can do it. But it's the most popular method chosen, so, here we are.

Every place I've worked has measured output in terms of concrete objectives being achieved in "reasonable" timeframes. "Reasonable" is always highly subjective, and I've definitely been the one who hasn't gotten things done within initial estimates because it turned out here there be dragons or some such. I've generally had good managers who understand the work, and are technical enough to understand why it sometimes takes longer than expected.

The coworkers I've seen fired for poor performance were the ones who consistently didn't get things done within their own estimates, and were consistently unable to provide good rationale for why. The ones I've seen who have done fuck all and gotten away with it were the ones especially good at coming up with plausible reasons for the endless delays, and were otherwise on good terms with their managers (or had less technically managers who were easier to hoodwink). Others took the tactic of never taking on solo work, and then always "pairing" on everything (but never actually contributing any real work).

> Look, getting less work done than is expected of you relies on knowing that expectation, which you don't. Has it occurred to you that those "stealing" might just legitimately think that they ARE doing what's expected of them? I mean, they're doing it... and they're employed... so what's the expectation?

Seems to me you are arguing in favor of people doing nothing and getting paid for it? I mean, isn't that what you're saying here?

That's literally stealing, is it not? Sure, they might be getting away with it, but people steal and get away with it all the time, but that doesn't make it right.

You're essentially making the argument that "if you can get away with theft, it's not theft," which really says a lot more about you than it does about me.

> At the end of the day it would be nice to all hold hands and sing kumbaya. But ultimately, we are all trying to do the least stuff we need to do to get results. Companies are putting in the absolute least amount of effort to measuring performance, and employees are putting in the least effort to get their job done. So, it seems fair to me, and I don't think anyone is stealing.

Yeah, no, this has never been the case for any of the places I've worked, and I find it hard to believe I've just "gotten lucky". I think you're just spewing bullshit that isn't actually reflective of reality. It might be true for some companies, but it's absolutely untrue as a general rule, which is what you're putting forth here.

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#345
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Bauernopfer" (German for "pawn sacrifice") is a common term in German to mean "sacrificing someone insignificant to get the big guy out of trouble". So the English translation might be machine-done; in the original German, the word makes a lot of sense and carries a definite meaning.

Not a native speaker, but I've heard the term "sacrificial pawn" being used in such cases in movies and series.

https://www.dict.cc/?s=bauernopfer

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What you're implicitly arguing for is a complete lack of trust, which leads to an entirely different set of workplace problems This is already the current situation. This is why your computer is monitored and you badge in. And, on the topic of badging in, the reason we do this is because measuring output is hard, and company's are lazy. Measuring time is easy, so they just use that as a proxy for output. That's why…

> This is already the current situation. This is why your computer is monitored and you badge in. But it's not, and I'm not? I haven't ever worked under these conditions, and I've worked a handful of jobs over close to 20 years. I'm always confused when people like yourself make these sweeping statements, given I've never once encountered them. I know I haven't encountered them because I've witnessed coworkers at a f…

> You're essentially making the argument that "if you can get away with theft, it's not theft," which really says a lot more about you than it does about me.

No, that's not at all the argument I'm making. I'm making the argument that being a poor worker is not theft because it cannot be. Because theft requires you stealing something, and salary employees cannot steal time because they are not paid by time.

> I think you're just spewing bullshit that isn't actually reflective of reality

This has been the case everywhere I've been employed and has also been the case with everyone I know.

Look, I don't really care if you think your company is different and I'm certainly not going to try to convince you that your experience isn't real. That's not productive.

All I'm saying is, if we have a problem where workers aren't doing a good job, that's a measuring problem. Your company figured out the measuring problem. Congratulations! Most haven't, which is why they have so many shitty workers. They just need to put in more effort into measurement.

Ultimately the company is the sole entity responsible for setting expectations. If they're letting people get away with less work, then they're signalling "what you're doing is okay and you should keep doing it". I'm not going to fault random workers who have zero leverage or control in anything because their company and managers decided to be lazy and irresponsible.

You want to measure performance? Yeah, that takes effort and knowledge. Putting in an HID reader isn't gonna cut it.

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#347
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should let our executives commit crimes lest they be outcompeted by other executives committing worse crimes is a terrible argument. It's more a argument for not letting the other company compete as easily in your country

If our companies get destroyed, people fired and US/Chinese crooks win while EU spirals into recession, moral high ground is going to be a poor comfort.

if vw for example would „get destroyed“ it would be more that some other company woulf take over control and do the job hopefully right. The company is the whole thing. production, workes, industrial plant etc… that wont go away if you take away upper management and stock owners.

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a native speaker, but I've heard the term "sacrificial pawn" being used in such cases in movies and series.

https://www.dict.cc/?s=bauernopfer

yea, "scapegoat" or "fall guy" would carry a similar meaning to "Bauernopfer" in German.
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