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Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

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Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#341

Post by citrin_ru »

thehappypm wrote: post #331
burmanm wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Far easier is to just destroy the train tracks with explosives that connect between Finland and Russia (or demolish them like done in Salla after letting them rot). There's no defensive reason for this other than in the cabinet talks.

False. First of all it's not just so easy to destroy infrastructure in a way that can't be rebuilt quickly; thousands of miles of train tracks would be difficult to destroy. This is happening all over Ukraine. Second, blowing up your own country's rail infrastructure means you can't use it, either, which means you lose an advantage you have that your trains can move on your rails but your enemy's cannot.

Bridges are hard to rebuild quickly and they can be destroyed using glide bombs and cruise missiles. Ukraine struggles to do this because has very small air force and don't have enough tools to sufficiently suppress Russian air defence. NATO air force is stronger and can in theory acheive air superiority.

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#342

Post by forty »

jarek83 wrote: post #240

Given the 5 year estimate until full-scale russian invasion against EU, it's gonna be to late.

France has its own nuclear power and I don't think it could really avoid being involved like we did for Ukraine if war was to cross EU border (my perspective as a French citizen)

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#343

Post by Suppafly »

PaulRobinson wrote: post #236
sbuttgereit wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand.... "Unification to standard gauge on May 31 – June 1, 1886 [United States] In 1886, the southern railroads agreed to coordinate changing gauge on all their tracks. After considerable debate and planning, most of the southern rail network was converted from 5 ft (1,524 mm) gauge to 4 ft 9 in (1,448 mm) gauge, then the standard of the Pennsylvania Railroad, over two days beginning on Monday, May 31,…

An impressive feat, that is unlikely unachievable on a modern train network. The tolerances are just a bit tighter, the risks and liabilities are higher, and the workforce just isn't "there" - this is from a time when rail was a huge money earner and could afford to employ a huge number of people. Today? Not so much, pretty much anywhere in the World.

>The tolerances are just a bit tighter, the risks and liabilities are higher, and the workforce just isn't "there"

Sure, but they do it with big machines that ride down the rails now instead of lining up thousands of men with sledge hammers.

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#344

Post by bluGill »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #328
bluGill wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem with line by line is you need to have gauge switching systems someplace - line be line means you are moving all that.

The need for that is pretty much a given with this change. I don't think it's avoidable.

While not completely avoidable, it is partially avoidable if you carefully plan. Moving all your gauge change equipment is expensive, so if you can avoid one that is worth a lot.

There are a lot of options and I expect those planning this to look into all the details to figure out what they can do.

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#345

Post by Suppafly »

culopatin wrote: post #313
AlotOfReading wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any competent shipper facing a train issue will just put the load on semis instead for 3-10x the price. Freight rail mainly exists as an low cost bulk carrier of convenience these days. Ships outcompete rail for bulk goods along inland waterways, and semis outcompete rail for network volume, ease of delivery, and adaptability to constraints.

Assuming an unlimited supply of semis and drivers to fit the demand. With limited supply big companies will be able to a compete for the available trucks at really high prices but small-mid businesses will be left out.

>Assuming an unlimited supply of semis and drivers to fit the demand.

If the US really wanted to get it done, they could involve the army and various state national guards. They have tons of trained semi and heavy truck drivers, way more than most people would assume. Most states also have tons of trained drivers for their massive snow plows and highway repair trucks and stuff. The only thing stopping these massive projects is money and lack of imagination.

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#346

Post by inglor_cz »

andriamanitra wrote: post #19
thih9 wrote: post #3

> will cost billions of euros, affect more than 9,200 km of track, and take decades How is a change like this going to be implemented? E.g. are they going to mainly update some tracks everywhere (and have two systems running in parallel), or all tracks in selected areas (and have passengers change), or something else? Was there a comparable large scale rail infrastructure change in some other country?

Currently the leading plan is to build another narrower track alongside the existing ones (so the old trains can keep operating), but it is still in the planning phase. [1] I am not convinced this project is ever going to pay for itself. I feel like you could move cargo from one train to another somewhere near the border for quite a long time with the money it is going to take to convert the entire rail network. Finl…

The Helsinki-Tallinn tunnel would be expensive, but in the current climate of hostilities with Russia, the EU could support it just to make a point.

It would also enable high-speed services from Finland to Central Europe - Rail Baltica to Tallinn is currently being built, so Helsinki-Warsaw could be a plausible connection, doable in less than 8 hours. (More than ideal, but trains that run for 8 hours from one end of their journey to another are commonplace in Central Europe.)

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#347

Post by inglor_cz »

jabl wrote: post #44
thih9 wrote: post #3

> will cost billions of euros, affect more than 9,200 km of track, and take decades How is a change like this going to be implemented? E.g. are they going to mainly update some tracks everywhere (and have two systems running in parallel), or all tracks in selected areas (and have passengers change), or something else? Was there a comparable large scale rail infrastructure change in some other country?

In 1886 the USA switched the rail gauge of the southern states to standard gauge. Most of the work was done over two days. http://southern.railfan.net/ties/1966/66-8/gauge.html Obviously doing this today would be a much more complicated affair, considering the much higher speeds and weights of contemporary trains.

This is a lot easier to do with wooden sleepers than with concrete ones. You can drive new nails into wooden sleepers almost at will, so you can keep the sleepers in place and "just" move one rail to a different position. Concrete sleepers have pre-fabricated holes for the indicated gauge, which means replacing them.

German soldiers re-gauged Soviet railways on a very short notice too when Barbarossa started.

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#348

Post by anticensor »

lazide wrote: post #299
iggldiggl wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where? Finland specifically, or elsewhere? Both my local tram system in Germany as well as DB as the national infrastructure operator in Germany have construction tolerances of only +/- 2 mm. Maintenance tolerances on the other hand can be quite a bit larger, at least in the plus direction (on the order of 15/20/25 mm).

Sure, but thats Germans. I'm surprised it isn't specc'd in 10ths.

They should've specced 1435mm±410µm, with no broadening at curves.

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#349

Post by ta1243 »

T-A wrote: post #179
theshrike79 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference between Finnish and Russian gauge is 4mm IIRC the diff to European standard is closer to 10cm, still doable but a hurdle compared to just driving a trainload of troops to the middle of Helsinki it's a bit harder

First sentence from the article: The Finnish government has announced the conversion of its rail network from Russian gauge (1,524 mm) to European standard (1,435 mm). 1524 - 1435 = 89 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_ft_and_1520_mm_gauge_railway... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard-gauge_railway

So "closer to 10cm" then

Clearly not "doable", without guage changing bogies.

Re: Finland announces migration of its rail network to international gauge

#350

Post by inglor_cz »

burmanm wrote: post #222
varsketiz wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal is defence - to prevent easy russian train logistics deep into Finland.

Far easier is to just destroy the train tracks with explosives that connect between Finland and Russia (or demolish them like done in Salla after letting them rot). There's no defensive reason for this other than in the cabinet talks.

IIRC Russian army had, prior to the outbreak of the current war, several tens of thousands of soldiers specialized just in emergency railway construction and repairs. IDK how many remain now.

Russians aren't stupid, they know that the enemy will try to destroy the tracks when retreating, so they train to fix/bypass the problems quickly.

That includes some transportable improvised bridges ready for deployment.

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