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What is HDR, anyway?

lux.camera

341–350 of 352 posts

Re: What is HDR, anyway?

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does anyone else find the hubris in the first paragraph writing as off-putting as I do? > "we finally explain what HDR actually means" No. Because it's written for the many casual photographers we've spoken with who are confused and asked for an explainer. > Then spends 2/3rds of the article on a tone mapping expedition, only to not address the elephant in the room, that is the almost complete absence of predictabl…

> That's because this post is about HDR It's about HDR from the perspective of still photography, in your app, on iOS, in the context of hand-held mobile devices. The post's title ("What Is HDR, Anyway?"), content level and focus would be appropriate in the context of your company's social media feeds for users of your app - which is probably the audience and context it was written for. However in the much broader co…

> It's about HDR from the perspective of still photography, in your app, on iOS, in the context of hand-held mobile devices.

It's from the perspective of still photography, video, film, desktop computing, decades of research papers, and hundreds of years of analog photography, condensed into something approachable.

> However in the much broader context of HN, a highly technical community whose interests in imaging are diverse, the article's content level and narrow focus aren't consistent with the headline title. It seems written at a level appropriate for novice users.

"On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity"

To be clear, I didn't submit the post, and I never submit my posts. I don't care if my posts make a splash here, and kind of dread when they do because anything involving photography or video attracts the most annoying "well actually" guys on the Internet.

> When I saw the post's headline I thought "Cool! We really need a good technical deep dive into the mess that is HDR - including tech, specs, standards, formats, content acquisition, distribution and display across content types including stills, video clips and cinematic story-telling and diverse viewing contexts from phones to TVs to cinemas to VR."

The post is called, "What is HDR," and the introduction explains the intended audience. That audience is much larger than "people who want to read about ITU-R Recommendation BT.2100." But if you think people are interested in a post like that, by all means write it.

Re: What is HDR, anyway?

#342
post #3

HDR on displays is actually largely uncomfortable for me. They should reserve the brightest HDR whites for things like the sun itself and caustics, not white walls in indoor photos. As for tone mapping, I think the examples they show tend way too much towards flat low-local-contrast for my tastes.

I've found this especially a problem with those AI systems trying to add HDR to existing images/videos. The worst instance I've seen, was playing one of the recent Spongebob platformer games, and having his eyes glow like giant suns in the menu screen. I have a TV capable of a fairly high maximum brightness, and it was dimming the rest of the image just to make sure Spongebob's eyes lit up my living room like it was midday

It feels like to some photographers/cinematographers/game designers, HDR is a gimmick to make something look more splashy/eye catching. The article touches on this a bit, with some of the 2000s HDR examples in photography. With the rise of HDR TVs, it feels like that trend is just happening again.

Re: What is HDR, anyway?

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HDR gaming: Yes. HDR full screen content: Yes. HDR general desktop usage: No. In fact you'll probably actively dislike it to the point of just turning it off entirely. The ecosystem just isn't ready for this yet, although with things like the "constrained-high" concepts ( https://www.w3.org/TR/css-color-hdr-1/#the-dynamic-range-lim... ) this might, and hopefully does, change & improve to a more pleasing result Also t…

HDR on desktop in windows looks straight up broken on some HDR monitors I’ve tried Like totally washed out

They are working on it. It will be improved with the next release and broken with the sucsequent release. /s

Re: What is HDR, anyway?

#345

So, HN, are HDR monitors worth it? I remember ~10 years ago delaying my monitor purchase for the HDR one that was right around the corner, but never (in my purchasing scope) became available. Time for another look? The utility of HDR (as described in the article) is without question. It's amazing looking at an outdoors (or indoors with windows) scene with your Mk-1 eyeballs, then taking a photo and looking at it on a…

A lot of monitors that advertise HDR support really shouldn't. Many of them can decode the signal but don't have the hardware to accurately reproduce it, so you just end up with a washed out muddy looking mess where you're better off disabling HDR entirely. As others here have said, OLED monitors are generally excellent at reproducing a HDR signal, especially in a darker space. But they're terrible for productivity w…

> A lot of monitors that advertise HDR support really shouldn't. Many of them can decode the signal but don't have the hardware to accurately reproduce it,

You can lie as much as you like as an advertiser. At the beginning, HD meant 1080p. Then, 1080p became FullHD, only that 720p to became HD and to make HD digital television possible. (the original SD television is worse than analog)

Re: What is HDR, anyway?

#346

So, HN, are HDR monitors worth it? I remember ~10 years ago delaying my monitor purchase for the HDR one that was right around the corner, but never (in my purchasing scope) became available. Time for another look? The utility of HDR (as described in the article) is without question. It's amazing looking at an outdoors (or indoors with windows) scene with your Mk-1 eyeballs, then taking a photo and looking at it on a…

Yes but with asterisks; Best way I can describe it: You know the 0-10 brightness slider you have to pick at the start of a game? Imagine setting it to 0 and still being able to spot the faint dark spot. The dynamic range of things you can see is so much expanded. Early HDR screens were very limited (limited dimming zones, buggy implementation) but if you get one post 2024 (esp the oled ones) they are quite decent. Ho…

> You know the 0-10 brightness slider you have to pick at the start of a game? Imagine setting it to 0 and still being able to spot the faint dark spot

0-10 is so old century. Now it should be 0-2 (0 - default, 1 dark, 2 light,) /s

Re: What is HDR, anyway?

#347
post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ugh. I will never understand the obsession this effect. All of it (lens flares, motion blur, film grain, DoF, tone mapping, and exposure, frame rate) are artistic choices constrained by the equipment we have to collect and present it. I think they'll always follow trends. In my entire career following film, photography, computer graphics, and game dev the only time I've heard anyone talk about how we experience any…

The problem is that it just doesn't work on modern, fast displays. Without motion smoothing on a fast and bright screen, 24fps/30fps goes from "choppy" to "seizure inducing and unwatchable". Older sets would just naturally smooth things out. Even on my LCD TV, smooth motion like credits at certain speeds are extremely uncomfortable to look at at these frame rates. I consider it borderline irresponsible to continue us…

> The problem is that it just doesn't work on modern, fast displays.

I'm very confused by this. From what I've seen it's been getting a lot better (since transitioning from CRTs). At least for television, frame-rate matching is becoming more of a thing. Higher frame rates really help. Calling everything fps for simplicity; 120 divides evenly by 24, 30, and 60. Lower values wont match and cause issues.

Similarly, (maybe back in the 90s?) projectors in theaters would double-expose each frame to reduce the flicker in between frames. With digital, they no longer have to advance the film between frames.

> smooth motion like credits at certain speeds are extremely uncomfortable to look at at these frame rates.

I think scrolling credits are the most difficult use case: white on black with hard text and no blur. DLP projectors (common 10+ years ago) drive me nuts displaying R G and B separately.

Outside of credits, cinematographers and other filmmakers do think about these things. I remember hearing a cinematographer talk about working on space documentaries in Imax. If you panned too quickly, the white spaceship over a black star field could jump multiple feet each frame. Sure films shot today are optimized for the theater, but the technology gap between theater and home is nowhere near as crazy as CRT vs acetate.

> Frame size is different from the other parameters, as it is solely a physical practicality.

I'm still struggling to see how its that different. Widescreen meant a lower effective resolution (it didn't have to--it started with Cinerama and Cinemascope), but was adopted for cost and aesthetic reasons.

> If some technology somewhere else in the stack causes a change…and soon all content aligns on the format, and the majority of home TV sets will be shaped to fit the majority content it can receive.

And the industry and audiences are really attached to 24fps. Like you say, home televisions adopted film's aspect ratio and I've also seen them adopt much better support for 24fps.

As kind of an aside, I wonder if the motion blur is what people are attached to more than the actual frame rate. I assume you're talking about frame rates higher than 30? Sure, we have faster films and brighter lights, but exposure time is really short. I saw the Hobbit in theaters in both high frame rate and 24fps and the 24fps one looked weird to me, too--I meant to look it up, but I assume they just dropped frames making the blur odd.

Re: What is HDR, anyway?

#348
post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's HDR at the world data level, but SDR at the rendering level. It's simulating the way film cannot handle real-life high dynamic range and clips it instead of compressing it like "HDR" in photography.

> Instead of compressing it like "HDR" in photography That's not HDR either, that's tone mapping to SDR. The entire point of HDR is that you don't need to compress it because your display can actually make use of the extra bits of information. Most modern phones take true HDR pictures that look great on an HDR display.

That's revisionist nomenclature. HDR photography has meant tone mapping long before HDR displays existed.

Re: What is HDR, anyway?

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “HDR” here is in the sense of “tone mapping to SDR”. Should also be said that even “H” DR displays only have a stop or two of more range, still much less than in a real-world high-contrast scenes

It's still better though. HDR displays are >1000nits while SDR caps out at less than 500nits even on the best displays. Eg for the Samsung s90c, HDR is 1022nits, SDR is 487nits: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/s90c-oled#test_608 https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/s90c-oled#test_4 Double the range is undeniably still better. And also 10bit instead of 8bit, so less posterization as well. Just because t…

> HDR displays are >1000nits

Displays as low as 400nits have been marketed as "HDR".

But nits are only part of the story. What really matters at the end is the range between the darkest and brightest color the display can show under the lighting conditions you want to use it as. 400 nits in a darkened room where blacks are actually black can have much more actual range than 1000nits with very bright "blacks" due to shitty display tech or excessive external illumination.

Re: What is HDR, anyway?

#350
post #36
post #3

HDR on displays is actually largely uncomfortable for me. They should reserve the brightest HDR whites for things like the sun itself and caustics, not white walls in indoor photos. As for tone mapping, I think the examples they show tend way too much towards flat low-local-contrast for my tastes.

HDR is really hard to get right apparently. It seems to get worse in video games too. I'm a huge fan of Helldivers 2, but playing the game in HDR gives me a headache: the muzzle flash of weapons at high RPMs on a screen that goes to 240hz is basically a continuous flashbang for my eyes. For a while, No Mans' Sky in HDR mode was basically the color saturation of every planet dialed up to 11. The only game I've enjoyed…

It's like the bloom menace all over again - all new rendering tech gets overused so you can't miss it before developers learn to restrain themselves.
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