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Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

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Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#341
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As explained in the military manual of the Netherlands, the prohibition of the use of riot control agents as a method of warfare is inspired by the fact that use of tear gas, for example, in armed conflict “runs the danger of provoking the use of other more dangerous chemicals”. A party which is being attacked by riot control agents may think it is being attacked by deadly chemical weapons and resort to the use of…

As opposed to citizens, who ought to just be thrilled their government is gassing them?

Nuking a non-nuclear country has less risk of MAD style escalation, yes? Same idea.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#342
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds bold and exciting, but it's clearly false and terrible advice. Violence, like warfare, is politics by other means. Every expert knows that law of warfare - the first law of warfare, in a sense - that it ends when and only when there is political agreement. Even in warfare, violence just buys time and changes your political position. In countries with rule-of-law, you can use the political / legal system t…

Once there's violence targeting you, the politics is over and a different kind of problem solving begins. If someone has attacked you and there has been no apology or attempt to solve the situation, he must be eliminated. Once he's done it, he may well try again, in which case you might die . Better then to get rid of him.

> Once there's violence targeting you, the politics is over

You are missing the fundamentals: violence is the continuation of politics, and is resolved by politics.

> If someone has attacked you and there has been no apology or attempt to solve the situation, he must be eliminated.

Really? If someone assaaults you, you must "eliminate" them? That is bizarre, extreme, dangerous behavior.

People have become highly indocrinated with violence as an ideology. Look at the absurdity of this comment.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might enjoy reading Rules for Radicals if you haven't already. If your riot can provoke a worse response from the authority, it can help your cause. The reaction is the action. It may be that this protest in Serbia got a bit rowdy and riotous (see "diversity of tactics") and now the headline is about the government's use of a disproportionate weapon against protestors, not about a riot.

> You might enjoy reading Rules for Radicals if you haven't already. If your riot can provoke a worse response from the authority One motif of Allinsky's message is the importance of organisation. Triggering tear gas against your peaceful protest is one thing. Losing control of it such that stores start getting looted is not. > It may be that this protest in Serbia got a bit rowdy and riotous (see "diversity of tacti…

> They got a tweet. (Not a headline.)

They got a headline https://apnews.com/article/serbia-protest-sonic-weapon-85025...

> Serbian officials deny illegal sonic weapon attack on peaceful protesters

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#344
post #244
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds bold and exciting, but it's clearly false and terrible advice. Violence, like warfare, is politics by other means. Every expert knows that law of warfare - the first law of warfare, in a sense - that it ends when and only when there is political agreement. Even in warfare, violence just buys time and changes your political position. In countries with rule-of-law, you can use the political / legal system t…

> the only solution is political. This an idealized version of revolution and assumes elections are available and respected... There's rarely no violence during the fall of authoritarian regimes, even the most famous version of non-violent protest succeeding in India included a lot of fighting by Indian nationalists that pushed Britain to withdraw.

> This an idealized version of revolution

I'm not talking about revolution, but about all violent conflict. It's an actual, universal principle of violent conflict, and of warfare in particular. I didn't say there was no violence, I said violence is politics using a different means, and is only settled by politics.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the only acceptable condition to use it maybe if there are riot or violence breakout in that area not for peaceful protest

If you were at a protest that was starting to get a bit rowdy and somebody used one of these on you, what would you do? I'd either come back prepared for actual violence, or switch from protest to sabotage. It just screams "escalation" to me.

At protests cops purposefully escalate things by having a cop undercover in the crowd to do something violent enough to justify police attacking the crowd.

They lob a rock in the general direction of their buddies and Bob's your uncle.

Years ago someone caught some campus cops tossing some bricks into the bed of one of their pickups behind their station.

They claimed they'd removed them from a section of sidewalk where they'd come loose and become a hazard. First time I've ever heard of a cop doing something like that...

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#346
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very important to know, though could you share a source where we can read about it?

The LRAD (Long Range Acoustic Device) was used for the first time in the USA in Pittsburgh during the time of G20 summit on September 24-25th, 2009 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSMyY3_dmrM The city of Pittsburgh has agreed to pay more than $200,000 to settle two cases stemming from the actions of the city during the September 2009 G-20 Summit, including $72,000 to Karen Piper, a bystander who suffered permanent…

Thank you!

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's good advice, but I mean what do you do when you get home? Now that your right to assemble has been effectively revoked, what's your next step?

> what do you do when you get home? Now that your right to assemble has been effectively revoked Your right to assembly remains. You just made a risk-adjustment decision about not participating in a riot. The correct thing to do is go home, regroup and join the protest leadership to help plan another protest where the hooliganism is kept in check.

When deciding whether to pull the trigger on such a thing, what matters is whether it will make things worse, regardless of whether that worsening counts as correct behavior or not.

Also, not being in Serbia myself I'm reluctant to make judgements from afar about what degree of hooliganism is justified in this case.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are aware that these LRAD systems have been used against US citizens, aren't you?

They have been used against US citizens in the United States? That is news to me. If they have been used in other countries against US diplomatic corps that is an act of war. Now if a US citizen uses a visit to a foreign country to protest against a government they’re on their own. I’m sorry, but US citizens shouldn’t be engaging in that and the US state department has no obligation to protect that condition.

Used in 2014 against protesters in Ferguson.

https://slate.com/technology/2014/08/lrad-long-range-acousti...

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what do you do when you get home? Now that your right to assemble has been effectively revoked Your right to assembly remains. You just made a risk-adjustment decision about not participating in a riot. The correct thing to do is go home, regroup and join the protest leadership to help plan another protest where the hooliganism is kept in check.

When deciding whether to pull the trigger on such a thing, what matters is whether it will make things worse, regardless of whether that worsening counts as correct behavior or not. Also, not being in Serbia myself I'm reluctant to make judgements from afar about what degree of hooliganism is justified in this case.

> what matters is whether it will make things worse, regardless of whether that worsening counts as correct behavior or not

Correct. Escalating from peaceful to violent protest shouldn't (I'd argue cannot) be responsibly decided in the moment.

If you went to a peaceful protest "that was starting to get a bit rowdy," the situation clearly changed from underneath you. Go home. Take stock. Decide if what you saw was random rioting or targeted violence. If the latter, decide if and how you can help and if it will make things better or worse.

I'm struggling to imagine non-Hollywood scenarios where someone showing up to peacefully protest is useful when it effectively escalates to civil war.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#350
post #174
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds bold and exciting, but it's clearly false and terrible advice. Violence, like warfare, is politics by other means. Every expert knows that law of warfare - the first law of warfare, in a sense - that it ends when and only when there is political agreement. Even in warfare, violence just buys time and changes your political position. In countries with rule-of-law, you can use the political / legal system t…

>And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say goodbye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrest, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with t…

"And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can't prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don't know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have....

"But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked—if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ’43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in ’33. But of course this isn’t the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D.

"And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you. The burden of self-deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying ‘Jewish swine,’ collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose."

— Milton Sanford Mayer, They Thought They Were Free: The Germans 1933-45

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