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Mark Klein, AT&T whistleblower who revealed NSA mass spying, has died

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Re: Mark Klein, AT&T whistleblower who revealed NSA mass spying, has died

#341

Post by mulmen »

aio2 wrote: post #2

Damn. I don't know if this started the whole movement or whatever you'd call it for this push towards privacy and the general public knowing about it, but it helped a lot. Before him releasing info about room 641A and whatever else, there really wasn't definitive evidence of any government spying and tampering, and either with the intention of starting this movement or simply letting people know, he was a big push in…

The Fourth Amendment seems like a more appropriate starting point. Most people call the “privacy movement” “the American revolution“.

Re: Mark Klein, AT&T whistleblower who revealed NSA mass spying, has died

#342

Post by mulmen »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #330
1oooqooq wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you mean, exactly like most the public on this site did when moving from Gmail and abandoning their isp provided email?

Why would ISP provided email be any more private than Gmail? If anything, I expect ISP provided email to be more compromised.

Because it’s a lot easier to compromise one email provider instead of a million. I’m surprised I have to explain the benefits of federated over centralized systems here.

Re: Mark Klein, AT&T whistleblower who revealed NSA mass spying, has died

#343

Post by fsflover »

shadowgovt wrote: post #332
fsflover wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> deep ignorance or apathy in the American electorate Which party is against spying? The only possible action is probably protesting. This doesn't work well, e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_and_the_Occupy... . And spying is used against the protestors, too: https://www.aclu.org/news/national-security/spying-occupy .

> Which party is against spying? The one that hasn't formed yet because the electorate has failed to recognize that parties only exist because they can consolidate mass political power. This is part of the "apathy" category. People don't care enough to meet up on this issue. They don't even care enough to be members of the existing parties or do more than show up to elections (and then, only between half and three-qu…

> The one that hasn't formed yet because the electorate has failed to recognize that parties only exist because they can consolidate mass political power.

This is not the reason. The reason is the how the system was designed:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law

Re: Mark Klein, AT&T whistleblower who revealed NSA mass spying, has died

#344

Post by LoganDark »

shadowgovt wrote: post #307
fsflover wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately this spying is exactly what all the government wants, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_wha...

It's also hard to make the case that it isn't, ultimately, what the people want, by "the standard you walk past is the standard you accept" principle. It's been nearly twenty years. If Americans were deeply, deeply bothered by the government spying on them, they'd have burned down this government by now. At most charitable, this speaks to a deep ignorance or apathy in the American electorate and American citizenship.…

> If Americans were deeply, deeply bothered by the government spying on them, they'd have burned down this government by now.

Right now stuff is happening that does deeply bothers Americans, and what do they do? They walk around with signs, they file legal papers, and maybe some other forms of peaceful, albeit useless, protest... a lot of other countries truly would be burning down the government right now if something like Elon happened there, but so far America has just been saying they don't want it, in as many ways as possible, but while still continuing to fully let it happen.

Re: Mark Klein, AT&T whistleblower who revealed NSA mass spying, has died

#345

Post by fshr »

LoganDark wrote: post #344
shadowgovt wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also hard to make the case that it isn't, ultimately, what the people want, by "the standard you walk past is the standard you accept" principle. It's been nearly twenty years. If Americans were deeply, deeply bothered by the government spying on them, they'd have burned down this government by now. At most charitable, this speaks to a deep ignorance or apathy in the American electorate and American citizenship.…

> If Americans were deeply, deeply bothered by the government spying on them, they'd have burned down this government by now. Right now stuff is happening that does deeply bothers Americans, and what do they do? They walk around with signs, they file legal papers, and maybe some other forms of peaceful, albeit useless, protest... a lot of other countries truly would be burning down the government right now if somethi…

Can you give an example of a country where you think the population would do something violent or upending if they had an Elon?

Re: Mark Klein, AT&T whistleblower who revealed NSA mass spying, has died

#346

Post by gosub100 »

shadowgovt wrote: post #307
fsflover wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately this spying is exactly what all the government wants, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_wha...

It's also hard to make the case that it isn't, ultimately, what the people want, by "the standard you walk past is the standard you accept" principle. It's been nearly twenty years. If Americans were deeply, deeply bothered by the government spying on them, they'd have burned down this government by now. At most charitable, this speaks to a deep ignorance or apathy in the American electorate and American citizenship.…

Victim blaming. "How dare you get victimized and not do more to stop it?"

Re: Mark Klein, AT&T whistleblower who revealed NSA mass spying, has died

#347

Post by shadowgovt »

fsflover wrote: post #343
shadowgovt wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which party is against spying? The one that hasn't formed yet because the electorate has failed to recognize that parties only exist because they can consolidate mass political power. This is part of the "apathy" category. People don't care enough to meet up on this issue. They don't even care enough to be members of the existing parties or do more than show up to elections (and then, only between half and three-qu…

> The one that hasn't formed yet because the electorate has failed to recognize that parties only exist because they can consolidate mass political power. This is not the reason. The reason is the how the system was designed: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law

The Tea Party Republicans are a counter-example (or more accurately, a counterinsurgency). While there are still only two parties, one of them has become something that would be nearly unrecognizable to its members from the '70s.

It is possible to organize within the party to bend it. But in general, one side of the aisle tends to seem to have difficulty with finding enough common ground to actually work as a bloc, while the other side has managed, impressively, to unify Christian fundamentalists and ultra-rich billionaires.

Re: Mark Klein, AT&T whistleblower who revealed NSA mass spying, has died

#348

Post by shadowgovt »

gosub100 wrote: post #346
shadowgovt wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also hard to make the case that it isn't, ultimately, what the people want, by "the standard you walk past is the standard you accept" principle. It's been nearly twenty years. If Americans were deeply, deeply bothered by the government spying on them, they'd have burned down this government by now. At most charitable, this speaks to a deep ignorance or apathy in the American electorate and American citizenship.…

Victim blaming. "How dare you get victimized and not do more to stop it?"

Victims have to be victimized first. Most surveilled Americans feel about as victimized as a well-kept dog.

Re: Mark Klein, AT&T whistleblower who revealed NSA mass spying, has died

#349

Post by shadowgovt »

mulmen wrote: post #339
shadowgovt wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't. Fewer than 3/4 of eligible voters voted in 2020. In general, somewhere around 10% to a third of eligible voters actually vote in primaries, which are the elections that actually have the most impact on office holding. Nobody needs to fake election results when Americans just don't show up to vote. It's a disquietingly under-informed and apathetic electorate.

> It's a disquietingly under-informed and apathetic electorate. The United States has elevated voter suppression to an art form. Last minute polling relocations, inadequate polling locations, unreasonable ID requirements, unreasonable registration requirements, “accidental” voter roll purges. It’s not easy to vote here. And it’s especially hard if you are in a group the incumbents don’t like. See https://en.wikipedia…

While these things happen, they are not the bulk of the explanation for the lack of voters showing up.

The bulk of it is that voters don't show up. We had the most turnout for any Presidential election in 2020, when people were literally quarantining to escape a plague... Turnout was around 66%. Evidence suggests that (at least in modern times) the way to get Americans to vote is to so constrain them that they can't do anything else with their time on election day.

Re: Mark Klein, AT&T whistleblower who revealed NSA mass spying, has died

#350

Post by tehjoker »

shadowgovt wrote: post #147
tehjoker wrote: post #74

It's crazy almost nothing changed after this revelation. What a fake democracy we live in.

Or a real democracy with voters either deeply apathetic about being watched or deeply anxious about what happens if nobody's watching.

this comment would make sense if this was the only issue where this was true instead of one amongst almost an uncountable number
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