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In Defense of Y'All

texasmonthly.com

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Re: In Defense of Y'All

#341

Post by amalcon »

shemtay wrote: post #260
gregw2 wrote: post #11

I tease non-Texans that Texan English is actually superior to normal American English because it supports second-person plural via "Y'all" exactly as mentioned in this article... "you guys" is, to some ears, sexist, and "youse guys" (a New York-ism) is a little too old-school Italian. English lost its second person plural when we switched from Thou (second person singular formal + Thee=second person singular informal…

Thou and Thee are nominative and objective cases. Same for You and Ye. The formality/informality distinction is between You/Ye and Thou/Thee. Plural 2nd person used to formally address a single individual came to English from French, thanks to the Norman Conquest. French, I think, inherited it from Latin, and the custom of addressing the emperor with the plural. After a while it became rude to address people with the…

So, by analogy that most english speakers will understand:

Use "thou" where one would use "I" if discussing onesself. Use "thee" where one would use "me".

Re: In Defense of Y'All

#342

Post by kgeist »

On a related note, some languages distinguish between "we including you" and "we excluding you". I wonder why it's not a thing in European languages. Seems like a pretty important distinction in certain cases :)

Re: In Defense of Y'All

#343

Post by axpvms »

Spivak wrote: post #152
throw18376 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in northeast urban areas, if someone uses y’all it means they are probably a left-wing/social justice oriented person. use is correlated with “folks”/“folx”. no idea why, maybe to replace gendered “you guys”. weird but true.

Yep, it also replaces "ladies and gentlemen" and is a more informal "people." I've heard of the the mythical gender neutral guys but having spent my life in classes and a career field where being the only woman is the standard, the amount of times folks are like "good morning guys… and girl" or "good morning fellas… and lady" is just comical at this point. Clearly speakers aren't imaging a mixed group when they say i…

Maybe it's that they were intending to address a group, but then realised that what they said might cause offence so they corrected themselves.

I think it's not so much they imagined what they were saying before they said it, it's that they reached for the handy phrase for addressing a group without thinking, and then only afterwards realised it. At least that's what I would do.

I wonder what it would feel like if I joined a majority female class and was addressed as "good morning ladies, and man". I've never been in the situation unfortunately.

Another phrase would be good. I vote for youse all.

Re: In Defense of Y'All

#344

Post by radlad »

jazzyjackson wrote: post #333
radlad wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I maintain that the sentence shows no disrespect to my Midwestern sensibilities. It's considered common courtesy to ask someone how their day is going, and I don't consider "you guys" to be a sign of disrespect. In fact, it seems quite clear to me that the parent was attempting to be warm and welcoming.

Warm and welcoming sure but too casual, you guys IMO implies familiarity, I wouldn't use it with strangers, could be regional or generational but that's my rural Illinoian take. Y'all is more flexible.

Fascinating - I'm from Michigan, and I would say "y'all" sounds more casual to my ears than "you guys." Formal speaking (in contrast to casual speaking) often eschews contractions.

Re: In Defense of Y'All

#345

Post by spondylosaurus »

Aloha wrote: post #324
spondylosaurus wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Midwest? I thought it was just a West Coast thing! (Also extremely ubiquitous in SoCal.)

SoCal it can also be replaced with dude/dudes

This is true. Sometimes I'll even address my wife as "dude"...

Re: In Defense of Y'All

#346

Post by wholinator2 »

jazzyjackson wrote: post #333
radlad wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I maintain that the sentence shows no disrespect to my Midwestern sensibilities. It's considered common courtesy to ask someone how their day is going, and I don't consider "you guys" to be a sign of disrespect. In fact, it seems quite clear to me that the parent was attempting to be warm and welcoming.

Warm and welcoming sure but too casual, you guys IMO implies familiarity, I wouldn't use it with strangers, could be regional or generational but that's my rural Illinoian take. Y'all is more flexible.

I agree with the other poster. Missourian and "y'all" is ridiculously less formal than "you guys". To me, "y'all" is specifically informal and is used in exactly that manner, even in corporate emails. It denotes a more conversational tone that's open to feedback. "You guys" does not exist within formal/informal for me, it's either, neither, or both, just depending on what you say around it.

"How are you guys doing today" spoken at a red lobster is absolutely fine, completely normal language, whether spoken by the president or by a child. It's the single most ubiquitous and wholly normal greeting that i know. Corporate really over does it sometimes

Re: In Defense of Y'All

#347

Post by jhbadger »

gregw2 wrote: post #11

I tease non-Texans that Texan English is actually superior to normal American English because it supports second-person plural via "Y'all" exactly as mentioned in this article... "you guys" is, to some ears, sexist, and "youse guys" (a New York-ism) is a little too old-school Italian. English lost its second person plural when we switched from Thou (second person singular formal + Thee=second person singular informal…

There's also "Yinz", these days mostly used in Pittsburgh (and even then mostly by older people). It is unfairly dismissed as "regional" in the article, but so are the others, really.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yinz

Re: In Defense of Y'All

#348

Post by matthewdgreen »

Minor49er wrote: post #317
parpfish wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a native midwesterner, I get more annoyed and defensive than I should when people complain that “you guys” isnt gender neutral. Where I come from, everyone is “a guy”. It can mean “male person”, but that’s only if you use it in specific contexts that brings up gender (like saying “guys and gals”).

"Guys" means "people". I have grown up in the Midwest as well where it's common to hear girls and women use it to address all-female groups. It's basically like how "mankind" or "man" is short for "humankind" or "human" and not for "male". These are also backed up in dictionaries that are more than a few years old One of my former employers only a few years ago announced that they would ban the term "guys" because so…

I’ve said “you guys” all my life (grew up in the northeast) but I’m a professor and teach mixed-gender classes from all over the world. Plenty of people are completely fine with “guys” as a gender neutral term and express bafflement that there would be a problem. However: a non-trivial percentage find it weird, not necessarily because HR told them to, but because it really sounds odd to them. One person asked me if it would sound normal to ask “how many guys have you dated recently” and I took their point that this would indeed sound very gendered.

The lesson is: things that sounded normal to you and your peer group growing up might not work in the larger and more culturally diverse world you encounter professionally. So why insist on them? I’ve switched to “you folks” which makes me sound like I’m about to lead a square dance, but people seem to find it disarming.

Re: In Defense of Y'All

#349

Post by TexanFeller »

I'm a little miffed that anyone would object to "y'all" or that anyone would take the objection seriously enough to feel the need to defend its use. Another Texanism comes to mind in response, the one that ends in "and the horse they rode in on".

Re: In Defense of Y'All

#350

Post by gregw2 »

HelloMcFly wrote: post #237
gregw2 wrote: post #11

I tease non-Texans that Texan English is actually superior to normal American English because it supports second-person plural via "Y'all" exactly as mentioned in this article... "you guys" is, to some ears, sexist, and "youse guys" (a New York-ism) is a little too old-school Italian. English lost its second person plural when we switched from Thou (second person singular formal + Thee=second person singular informal…

I think it's a bit of a stretch to say "y'all" somehow belongs to Texas, it's roots are almost certainly in other areas of the South and Appalachia where it is still used just as frequently as it is in modern-day Texas.

Fair point. I could/should have been clearer on that.
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