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Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

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Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#341

Post by ideashower »

diogenes_atx wrote: post #77

Since capital punishment was reinstated in 1976 in the USA, many innocent Americans have been executed by the state. There is a considerable literature of scholarly research documenting this issue. For those interested in learning more, I highly recommend the following books: Justin Brooks (2023) You Might Go to Prison Even Though You're Innocent , University of California Press https://www.amazon.com/Might-Prison-Th…

I was doing some reading based on your comment, and I'm kind of astonished to learn that public support for the death penalty only went up after the Gregg decision, peaking at 80% for in 1990. Wow.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#342

Post by komali2 »

xyzzyz wrote: post #241
SadTrombone wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The prosecutor's office and the victim's family both pushed to stop the execution due to reasonable doubt. Think they might have an idea of the available evidence? The previous governor had begun an inquiry into the matter but the new governor shut that board down and blocked any and all attempts to halt the execution.

No, a prosecutor at no point argued that this guy was not guilty. Nobody argued that, except dishonest activists who lied to you. All prosecutor offered was commuting the death penalty to life without parole. In addition, I don’t see how a random prosecutor’s opinion is relevant. If this was the original prosecutor who prosecuted the case, then it would have some evidentiary value. In this case, this is just some guy…

The exact words of the person you're replying to were

> The prosecutor's office and the victim's family both pushed to stop the execution due to reasonable doubt.

Nobody claimed the prosecutor argued he's not guilty.

> Why should we care what he believes, over opinion of hundreds of prosecutors in this country who are happy that the justice has finally been served?

Because he's correct. The State doesn't have enough evidence to justify execution. Justice isn't being served by executing this man.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#343

Post by komali2 »

WheatMillington wrote: post #249
iwontberude wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This thread is full of people who are anti-death penalty Who even argues in favor of it? What studies shows that the death penalty is effective? Who has done cost benefit analysis for civic life to have the government executing people generally speaking? So many truthy arguments on behalf of the death penalty.

I oppose the death penalty, but social policies should not be based on the outcome of cost/benefit analysis. If they were, executions would be used far more, on much less serious crimes, given rates of recidivism and revictimisation amongst certain crime types.

Cost benefit analysis wouldn't shake out in favor o execution on serious crimes due to add on effects.

Cost benefit analysis and evidence based policy making would lead to a restorative justice system.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#344

Post by qingcharles »

brewdad wrote: post #333
qingcharles wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's almost never incontrovertible proof in a criminal trial. Even if the suspect is on camera confessing. The sheer number of people who confessed to crimes and were then found innocent through DNA evidence is perturbing.

Maybe that’s a clue that we should almost never be using the death penalty.

100%. I've seen so many wrongful convictions. A lot of those, the person wasn't necessarily innocent, but the trial process was so faulty that they did not receive the due process they were owed.

The primary responsibility of a defense attorney isn't what a guilty defendant wants (to get off the charges), but it is to ensure that their client receives an absolutely fair trial with all the fairly-obtained evidence fairly presented.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#345

Post by telotortium »

komali2 wrote: post #343
WheatMillington wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I oppose the death penalty, but social policies should not be based on the outcome of cost/benefit analysis. If they were, executions would be used far more, on much less serious crimes, given rates of recidivism and revictimisation amongst certain crime types.

Cost benefit analysis wouldn't shake out in favor o execution on serious crimes due to add on effects. Cost benefit analysis and evidence based policy making would lead to a restorative justice system.

Rehabilitation has not been shown to work regularly in practice, particularly for criminals with long criminal histories (such as Marcellus Williams). The primary benefit of incarceration is incapacitation - keeping repeat criminals off the streets.

Personally, I would make prison conditions less harsh, as long as we could guarantee that repeat criminals would stay in prison until they reach the age at which aggression has declined enough that they’re unlikely to impulsively commit crimes. That might have to be 50+ years old. Then they should be released with a UBI. Most people who would get sent to prison for decades after a life of crime were never suitable employees in the first place, and they’ll be even less so after prison. However, they should have enough money to live a life of dignity after prison, and if they can keep a job, they should keep all that money too.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#346

Post by Dalewyn »

redundantly wrote: post #322
snapcaster wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we lost Roe v. Wade because the democrat party is so useless at representing our interests they failed to ever pass any law granting the right to abortion. Republicans didn't sit on their hands complacently for 40 years like democrats they followed a systematic approach to overturning it. Meanwhile the democrats did nothing except ask me for more money and continue to take L after L

This downplays the GOP’s role. Their decades-long plan, including stacking the courts, reveals just how hateful and ruthless they are in pursuing their agenda. While Democrats could have done more, obstacles like the filibuster and narrow majorities made passing protections difficult. The bigger issue is the GOP’s deliberate and depraved effort to strip away rights. Don’t give them a pass on it by blaming others.

Ruthless? Sure. Hateful? No. Kindly stop furthering the societal division in our country.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#347

Post by tptacek »

sitkack wrote: post #338
tptacek wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that the opposite is closer to the truth: most cases are made on circumstantial evidence. Jury instructions apparently tell jurors not to weight it any differently than direct evidence.

What does that mean? That they makeup spurious causal chains and believe that is reality?

Just search [missouri model jury instructions circumstantial evidence]. Jury instructions are written in plain English.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#348

Post by [deleted] »

atoav wrote: post #339
harshreality wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there are 1000 different ways to get both a ruler and a laptop that belonged to the same murder victim.

[1] Ruler is in the folded laptop, laptop gets stolen, laptop is sold, ruler inside, buyer is told he can keep the cool ruler. [2] Murderer specifically tries to pin the murder on someone else. Someone else being prosecuted is a good way to live free after, gifts his laptop and a ruler to the suspect or leaves them somewhere where they are discovered and taken. Is that unlikely? Is it more unlikely than a murderer ke…

[deleted]

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#350

Post by ChoHag »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #233
voisin wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument is that the girlfriend and jailhouse snitch both were looking to get the $10k reward money for his conviction. And that’s the only way the third point (had the items in the car) was known (from the girlfriend).

> argument is that the girlfriend and jailhouse snitch both were looking to get the $10k reward money for his conviction The Governor's counterargument being the "girlfriend never requested the reward for information about Ms. Gayle’s murder, despite claims that she was only interested in money" [1]. The interesting thing is I could see myself, were I on the jury, and if the other facts of the case aligned, finding W…

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