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Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules
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Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules
#342I found some rather troubling aspects within the ruling itself: 1. Retroactive application of arm's length principle The Court's reliance on the arm's length principle, despite acknowledging it's not required by EU law, is problematic. As stated in paragraph 124: > "Article 107(1) TFEU gives the Commission the right to check whether the level of profit allocated to such branches... corresponds to the level of profit…
Unfair and uncertain taxation is a European specialty.
Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules
#343Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's simple, EU law says Apple had to pay taxes at that time. Apple's ignorance of EU law is not an excuse, this doesn't work for individuals, why should it work for big multinational companies? Ireland doesn't have the power alone to overturn these kinds of laws, unless, of course, they decide to leave EU. Apple's decision to put their trust completely in Ireland officials and sidestep the EU is their own mistake. R…
> Apple's ignorance of EU law is not an excuse > Ireland doesn't have the power alone to overturn these kinds of laws How was apple to know what ireland could and could not do? Why should they have to? Irish government said to apple that the rules are as such. The precedent this sets is that companies should not trust governments' words, instead each company should somehow interpret the laws themselves, each (surely)…
Presumably these laws are published publicly, and apple has more an enough resources to hire enough lawyers to ensure they are in compliance.
Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.
Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules
#344I found some rather troubling aspects within the ruling itself: 1. Retroactive application of arm's length principle The Court's reliance on the arm's length principle, despite acknowledging it's not required by EU law, is problematic. As stated in paragraph 124: > "Article 107(1) TFEU gives the Commission the right to check whether the level of profit allocated to such branches... corresponds to the level of profit…
> Yes, it might ruffle some feathers in the short term. But in the long run, it's setting us up for a tax system where everyone plays by the same rules – whether you're a small local business or a tech giant.
That would be a truly wonderful thing to behold.
Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules
#345Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules
#346Well, you gotta balance all that tax evasion with something.
Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules
#347Even if this sounds like a huge fine, this is effectively meaningless, even if they end up paying it. 13 billion, for a company with market cap of more than 3 trillion is around 0.4% of their cap. Until these fines become meaningful, companies will just continue breaking the law and asking for forgiveness later, as the changes to their market cap can offset this fine in hours.
Why would you compare to market cap? The company is going to sink or swim regardless of what the market pegs it at.
It provides an excuse to believe the this is an example of the government not taking bad behavior by corporations seriously.
Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules
#348Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's simple, EU law says Apple had to pay taxes at that time. Apple's ignorance of EU law is not an excuse, this doesn't work for individuals, why should it work for big multinational companies? Ireland doesn't have the power alone to overturn these kinds of laws, unless, of course, they decide to leave EU. Apple's decision to put their trust completely in Ireland officials and sidestep the EU is their own mistake. R…
In the case of conflicting laws, who prevails? If the Irish pass a law that Apple can not pay certain taxes, does that not override EU law? Usually in cascading situations, the more local entity wins, n
If there is a legal conflict, EU law trumps all, the same way federal law trumps local law in US. The highest court is always an EU institution. EU countries give up part of their sovereignty in specific legal areas, like market competition regulations. They can always leave if they want.
Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules
#349Earlier quoted context omitted.
The welfare systems (in Europe at least) don't work. They work if you're old right now, but once the young people of today become old they won't get anything meaningful out of it. At least that's the impression I have and everyone else my age has. And healthcare is unavailable anyway. Several month long waits to see a specialist.
So how come the US has worse health outcomes?
Worse in some ways, better in others. The USA generally has higher 5-year cancer survival rates, and shorter waits for specialist visits and advanced imaging procedures. Of course there's a high variance in outcomes based on location and affluence.
Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules
#350Earlier quoted context omitted.
It does feel a little weird then that Apple is being fined here then? It seems like Ireland did the thing that's against the rules by offering the deal, not Apple? Obviously they worked on it together, but it feels odd that Ireland has now essentially gotten all the benefits of offering this illegal deal by having Apple do business there and now also gets all the back taxes that Apple probably wouldn't have paid to I…
That's exactly why I asked. If the government approached Apple, to offer them a special (specific to Apple) tax deal in exchange for X ... why is Apple now being held accountable for Ireland doings.
Because in this area, EU has rule of law, not Ireland.