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DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

justice.gov

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Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a town where all the officials express politically popular laments about the affordability of housing, but every time a developer wants to build apartments or tear down some old run-down post-war cookie-cutter houses for modern duplexs or tri-levels these same officials run them through a gauntlet of demands and then often as not end up denying the permits. They say they want dense, walkable, core neighborh…

That's not most municipalities though. There are a lot of places, particularly the high demand places, where the cost of acquiring the houses in the first place is the hang up. Everyone is certain they can get half a mil minimum. That drives costs considerably when you need 1/2 a block, or a full block for high density development. It's not easy. You could even have to end up giving the current land owners some prefe…

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Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting rid of the law of supply and demand is like getting rid of Boyle’s law. Legislate whatever you want but the behavior those laws model will still exist. I prefer to think of it this way. I like my markets free as in GPL, not free as in BSD. That is, I want the market itself to be free with limitations on the participants that keep them from taking it for themselves.

Uh, you're reading the wrong thing about it. Fixing supply and demand means things like punishing vacancies with taxation, promoting construction with tax breaks, and removing the demand by severely limiting rent seeking real estate investors.

I follow the RE space, and have done some RE investments (albeit mild ones - I don't own homes to rent or anything like that).

> punishing vacancies with taxation

Outside of tourist spots, this will hurt more than it will help. Most RE investors lose money on vacancies (it's literally a line item in their expenses) and work hard not to have them. They definitely do not make more money by artificially limiting supply that way. I assume you're targeting rich folks who own multiple homes (and do not rent them)? They're what - less than 5% of all vacancies? Perhaps less than 1% in many cities?

Almost everyone I know who purchases houses/apartments to rent them would get out of the business if vacancies were taxed - they operate these properties on a narrow margin - most of their "profit" is due to depreciation benefits and gaining equity from the payments the renters are making (and in a minority of cases, property value growth).

It may sound like if they sell, that's a good thing (more people can buy their offloaded property), but a lot of houses would also go out of circulation, because these people often buy distressed homes that banks won't give a loan on - and they renovate them, bring them up to code, etc.

I suppose if you could tax vacancies only for those that are not trying to rent them - sure. I'm on board.

> promoting construction with tax breaks

There are plenty of these, although it varies from location to location. But it's a pretty common RE investment strategy to go for these, as the tax savings can be very significant. People pool their money for a down payment on a construction loan (be it for an apartment complex or office building), build it, and are required to hold it for a number of years to get the tax breaks.

Of late, the push has been in the other direction - states/cities are removing some of these tax breaks - not sure why - perhaps they weren't as effective as they thought?

> and removing the demand by severely limiting rent seeking real estate investors.

There are ways to do this that may not be popular. The main one would be to remove fixed interest mortgages. Most developed countries don't have them - that's why plenty of foreigners buy in the US market.

Another is to allow property taxes to track actual property values (i.e. remove the cap on increase in property taxes). You can imagine how unpopular this will be for SF residents.

Remove tax benefits like bonus depreciation or accelerated depreciation.

Remove tax benefits that allow one to count RE losses against their W-2 income (it's tricky to do it, but possible for AirBnB investors).

Basically, just remove most tax benefits :-) The majority of RE investors get in it for tax benefits, not appreciation, and not that much even for cash flow (cash flow is fairly pathetic in most cases - getting $200/mo is considered good).

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#343

I am excited and optimistic that we appear to be applying economic principles to housing! Now that we're getting rid of centralized price controls / collusion, next can we do supply/demand?

YIMBY policy was the biggest issue at the DNC. Most of stars spoke of it in their speech and it was part of the first policy speech Harris gave. Dems are at least acknowledging the issue, but the enumerated powers clause may make it difficult to enact federally. We need to get YIMBY politicians elected locally.

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Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the demand side it would be nice to keep PE firms from hoovering up all the single family homes. https://www.thesling.org/are-hedge-funds-and-private-equity-...

Would be interesting to see what would happen if renters had the option to buy the underlying property/unit somehow after being a tenant for a certain time. The goal should be ownership for folks who want it, not a nation of renters.

There's nothing actually wrong with renting, if there's enough supply to stop profiteering by landlords.

What's frustrating is when (as appears to be obnoxiously common in the UK) affordability requirements for mortgages mean someone "can't afford" to buy even when their mortgage payments would be less than their current rent. While the landlord probably has an interest-only mortgage and doesn't pay tax on their mortgage payments.

Here's a thought: tax landlords based on their self-assessed property value, but make it so that the tenant has the right to buy the property for that amount.

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#345
post #332

"Over a century ago, Congress passed the Sherman Antitrust Act to protect competition in the marketplace. As the Supreme Court has explained, the “central evil” addressed by Section 1 of that Act is “the elimination of competition that would otherwise exist,” including competition on prices. When the Sherman Act was passed, an anticompetitive scheme might have looked like robber barons shaking hands at a secret meeti…

>Today, it looks like landlords using mathematical algorithms to align their rents." It's unclear how that can ever be outlawed though. Given the classic supply/demand curve, everyone can theoretically independently derive the optimal price. Doing so would arguably be basic business acumen, and I'm not sure how the government can ban that without banning any sort of pricing research, or preventing businesses from set…

> unclear how that can ever be outlawed though

There are certain categories of information that you are legally prohibited from sharing with your competitors. How you will set prices in the future is one of them [1].

Whether competitors agree on a specific price or a system of pricing (e.g. X per square foot, or raise rent 1% every year except prime numbers when rent goes up 10%, or raise rent by the last number of the month's lottery number) is irrelevant. A landlord looking at RealPage's YieldStar price could be confident they wouldn't be undercut in the same way someone who's made a handshake deal with their competitors would.

Where this crosses into liability for RealPage is if they knew this was how their tool was being used, or worse, marketed it as such. From what I've read, that seems to be the case.

[1] https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/antitrust-resource-manua...

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the demand side it would be nice to keep PE firms from hoovering up all the single family homes. https://www.thesling.org/are-hedge-funds-and-private-equity-...

Land Value Tax[0] is the way. It strongly incentivizes the following: > The owner of a vacant lot in a thriving city must still pay a tax and would rationally perceive the property as a financial liability, encouraging them to put the land to use in order to cover the tax. LVT removes financial incentives to hold unused land solely for price appreciation, making more land available for productive uses. Land value tax…

This has already failed. The bay area is full of empty land and buildings owned by firms and a horrific housing situation. Doesn't stop the statists from proposing yet more tax for every single problem though.

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One small catch, maybe even a constitutional hold up? It's not really your home if you are obliged to sell it after x years. The traditional societal compact with private property is that the property is yours for as long as you choose to keep it. (Providing you pay the taxes covering the costs to provide municipal services to your property.) This kind of changes that, and I'm not sure it would stand up to constituti…

No one is forcing you to rent it

Again, traditionally, renting your property on terms an owner unilaterally determines was seen as a right of owning private property. Provided you're able to find a renter who agrees to your terms, and provided your terms are legal, you were allowed to rent your property, again, forever. For instance, it was perfectly legal to rent your apartments for USD1500 per month, and at the same time, allow your kid to stay in one of the apartments for free and give a USD500 a month break to a long term renter who maybe lost his job. It was your property, so whatever terms you had with each renter was very much considered to be your business. (Again, within the bounds of legality. You can't be asking for a cut of the drugs dealt out of your apartment as a condition for instance.)

Unless I'm misunderstanding the proposal, this would change that practice. You would be told how much you could rent the property for, as well as the date you would need to sell the property. (Which, I'm guessing, would be based on the rent amount?) So a radical change from before in terms of private property rights.

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#348
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do that by building enough houses to make housing unattractive to investment firms

Alternatively, we adjust the tax code to reflect the instinct that people should deserve to keep a larger percentage of money when they actually worked to earn it, and that income that's essentially free to people who already have lots of money should maybe be taxed at a higher rate. I realize this is a spicy take, but we've really got to get away from this thing where we advantage passive income for wealthy landowne…

Or stop stealing everyones money through inflation?

Re: DOJ sues realpage for algorithmic pricing scheme that harms renters

#349

"Over a century ago, Congress passed the Sherman Antitrust Act to protect competition in the marketplace. As the Supreme Court has explained, the “central evil” addressed by Section 1 of that Act is “the elimination of competition that would otherwise exist,” including competition on prices. When the Sherman Act was passed, an anticompetitive scheme might have looked like robber barons shaking hands at a secret meeti…

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