I see a lot of people here justifying the occupation of bank-owned homes as if that is okay. I hope you never have to experience living next to squatters, as among other things, you might end up paying for their exaggeratedly high utilities.
Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem
341–350 of 930 posts
Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem
#342I have family who let out property in Spain.
They, along with other people in a similar position to them, have all suddenly become experts in smart home tech.
They have video doorbells, motion sensors, door sensors, etc. All so that they can be alerted to any activity immediately, allowing them to act within the exceptionally short eviction window.
The reality on the ground is that these ridiculous policies are widely exploited.
Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem
#343Earlier quoted context omitted.
If the 80yo people are living in the house, then it isn't vacant.
That's not how property taxes work here. Also, you need to figure out how you define vacant, and how to track it. If I relocated for work, and use the house 3 months a year and every other month for a weekend, is it vacant? How do you tell?
Yes, we are discussing a hypothetical, from a few parents up: "set a property tax that would hurt if the buildings became vacant"
The definition of vacant is something that would have to be figured out, but it's not impossible. For example, you could do a generous 6-12 months of the year occupation without taxation, and then a sliding scale from there. (So you pay 0% of the new tax at 12 months yearly occupation, 0% at 6 months, 50% at 3 months, and 100% at 0 months.)
Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem
#344Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't get it. You have keys to the place. There's no written contract, no money changing hands. Show up with some muscle, chuck the losers out on the street and change the locks. What are they going to do, take you to court?
From a legal standpoint, assaulting people is illegal. Assaulting them in their residence (trespassing) could be even more illegal. They definitely could take you to court. From a moral standpoint, do you realize you're advocating for the mafia here? That's exactly what private mafia companies have been doing for years. Rightful owners enjoying their property are already well protected by the law and the police (too…
The okupas are the ones running the extortion racket. If anyone is acting like the Mafia, it's the people illegally occupying the house and demanding money to leave.
What happens in the US is that the land owner hires people to squat in the house. They don't lay a finger on the real squatters. They just take up all the rooms and generally make it annoying to live there until they leave. Then they get paid by the landowner and move out.
This has resulted in lots of funny videos where squatters get angry at other squatters for squatting. The hypocrisy is astounding.
Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem
#345Earlier quoted context omitted.
Buying a house and purposefully leaving it empty is immoral, sqatting or not.
But if "empty living space", space that's reserved but unused, is immoral would you extend it to any such reserved but unused living space? Is an empty room in your house immoral? Or massively oversized rooms even if you live in them? In the end you're still blocking a lot of "empty space" that someone else could use if only there were smaller but more living units. Same applies when you live in a detached house and…
It’s not clear exactly where to draw the line, but that’s true of all kinds of moral distinctions. So I don’t think that kind of slippery slope argument is very persuasive.
Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem
#346I have family who let out property in Spain. They, along with other people in a similar position to them, have all suddenly become experts in smart home tech. They have video doorbells, motion sensors, door sensors, etc. All so that they can be alerted to any activity immediately, allowing them to act within the exceptionally short eviction window. The reality on the ground is that these ridiculous policies are widel…
I couldn't agree more. My parents have an "okupa" and they can't even go talk to her or she can sue them. They also have to pay for her electricity or water, otherwise, she has the right to sue them for "endangerment".
And she wasn't even a tenant. She has been there for 4 months now, and the judicial system simply works against home owners, it's crazy!
Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem
#347Earlier quoted context omitted.
> you're also making it more risky and thus less profitable to buy and rent out apartments You would be surprised about the sheer number of spaniards that would welcome this second-order effect. In the last ~10 years, renting has skyrocketed, due to the discovery of the spanish renting market by international money, and renting laws relaxation (demand side). Meanwhile, this has not increased the supply of homes, as i…
I think you misunderstood what the above commenter meant when they wrote that risk of squatters makes it "less profitable to buy and rent out apartments". Because of the additional risks of squatters, landowner will either have to take additional security measures (and make up the costs with higher rent) or accept the risk of squatters (and make up that risk with higher rent). In either case, the rent getsor expensiv…
No, I got it. I just think that would mainly mean investors exit the market.
If it is less profitable, they either further raise the prices or they get out of the market; the ratio of those two options depends on price elasticity. And prices don't have a lot of room to grow further in my opinion... unless of course the wages grow quickly (and minimum wage indeed has done it in the last 5 years). But then the country needs to be more productive or people get poor (fired!), which is also not good for the renting business, etc.
At the end of the day you're betting on the spanish market either squeezing people further, or gaining productivity real quick. And real estate is not very liquid, yet is typically long-term, and those investors are risk averse. So... there will be some that will exit the market.
Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem
#348Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree that it may not be 100% accurate, but probably correlated with the truth and directionally accurate. If you discard it, what do you have? Anecdotes? The media narratives?
If data is not representative it's just a metric. Its worse than anecdotes because an anecdote has a lot of information and nuance that can be obtained from it.
But you'd need other data to prove (or at least strongly suggest) that the data isn't representative.
You can't just say "the data COULD be unrepresentative", then just use some random guys anecdotes on the internet as more valid than national statistics.
Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem
#349Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think you misunderstood what the above commenter meant when they wrote that risk of squatters makes it "less profitable to buy and rent out apartments". Because of the additional risks of squatters, landowner will either have to take additional security measures (and make up the costs with higher rent) or accept the risk of squatters (and make up that risk with higher rent). In either case, the rent getsor expensiv…
No, I got it. I just think that would mainly mean investors exit the market. If it is less profitable, they either further raise the prices or they get out of the market; the ratio of those two options depends on price elasticity. And prices don't have a lot of room to grow further in my opinion... unless of course the wages grow quickly (and minimum wage indeed has done it in the last 5 years). But then the country…
And what happens when people leave the rental market? Fewer apartments for rent. And what happens to rental prices when there's a scarcity of apartments to rent? Prices go up.
Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem
#350Earlier quoted context omitted.
Squatting is a problem, period. Doesn’t matter if the house is empty or not.
Buying a house and purposefully leaving it empty is immoral, sqatting or not.
This is absurd.
Is your car sitting in your driveway right now? Someone else could be driving it, it's immoral that you don't leave the keys sitting on the roof.
Is your bed or couch empty right now? Someone else could be sleeping there right now.
Do you have money in your checking account? Someone else could be buying the things they need with that money, you should put the cash outside for them to take.
A house sitting empty while the owners renovate, look for tenants, try to sell, etc is a normal and necessary part of a functioning society.
The solution to housing shortages is to build more housing. That's it, that's the whole solution.