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Parable of the Sofa

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Re: Parable of the Sofa

#341

Post by BugsJustFindMe »

istultus wrote: post #171

Let me posit an ad-hoc theory built on our anchoring bias in regards to price and our inability to think in terms of inflation/hyperbolic discounting: tl;dr - Once a cheap alternative is on the market, us frugal folks can't imagine paying for what was once the default and only option, distorting our understanding of what constitutes good quality * He says buying a new sofa of the same quality today would cost upwards…

> Instead people feel better buying a (say) $800 IKEA sofa every 5 years, which over 25 years is the $4000 nominal he has spent on his own sofa.

My IKEA sofa is 10 years old, has been through 4 moves, and looks and feels exactly the same as the day I bought it modulo a smattering of aftermarket pet hair. I see no reason why it wouldn't last another 10 years. The price right now today is $750. I'm sure I didn't pay more than $500 at the time. And it folds out to a large guest bed. And it has a storage compartment. And getting it up or down a flight of stairs is a breeze. It's just a substantially better bargain. And if I ever need to replace the foam in the cushions, I can buy blocks of foam to put inside the covers for very cheap.

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#342

Post by whhuh »

Micoloth wrote: post #110

Every time I read takes like this I think people forget why big brands exist? Small business (or “lifestyle business”) vs big brand is often framed about being high quality vs cheap price, because in practice it often is. But in theory the two things are completely unrelated. Yes fixing stuff is good for the planet. But big brands could offer customer service just fine if people wanted it. Small business vs big brand…

> But, surprise, this second option doesn't scale. Because as soon as the nice asian shop goes viral, they realise they can’t keep up with the demand at all. And so they will probably refuse lots of customers. (Note, I’m not even considering the option they might increase prices)

I've always wondered -- who cares if you hit a scaling limit? Why can't you just coast on huge demand, refuse some customers, and have a sustainable business that's founded on trust in the quality of your product?

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#343

Post by m463 »

ghaff wrote: post #340
m463 wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it depends on the business. Maybe fixing 20 year old electronics might be hard, but it still work for (overengineered? underchanged?) herman miller aeron chairs.

Though even Aeron chairs, I had one fixed under warranty after 12 or so years. Then it pretty much fell apart after another 12 or so years. It might have been fixable again but it didn't seem worthwhile to faff around especially mid-COVID and I'm glad I just got a new one which was rock solid. (At the time I wished I could try a couple other models but I ended up being very happy just getting a direct replacement.)

> I ended up being very happy just getting a direct replacement

I so wish this worked for shoes/clothing/etc

You get really comfortable wearing it, then... you have to do a bunch of research next time.

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#344

Post by snypher »

photon_lines wrote: post #218
beowulfey wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of the article is that the big business model is "continued growth", which depends on constantly increasing sales, which means products necessarily get shittier so that they must be replaced more frequently. Small "lifestyle" businesses do not operate under this principle and encourage reuse and renewal. They represent opposing philosophies. Whether you can "just" get a sofa from big business or not, that i…

'The point of the article is that the big business model is "continued growth", which depends on constantly increasing sales, which means products necessarily get shittier so that they must be replaced more frequently.' - Sorry to interject here, but this is extremely wrong and nowhere did I find this take-away from the posted article. There are massive businesses that do sell extremely high-quality products - in fac…

This is boots theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#345

Post by Spivak »

BriggyDwiggs42 wrote: post #322
Spivak wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just efficiency, the very last thing I want to do when buying any good or service is talk to another human being. Hell if self checkout is any indication people will trade efficiency for not having to talk to a person. Eventually we'll all end up conserving our social battery for friends and loved ones rather than work and shopping.

Where do the friends and loved ones come from?

Not from grocery store interactions that's for damn sure.

My friend family tree is messy as hell but I can loosely bucket them in people I met in high school or college, people I met at parties, people I met at raves, people I met at shared interest gatherings — skate park, community garden, clubs, people I met at rallies/protests, people I met online, and then all of their friends and partners, and their friends of friends, etc..

I get that it's unbelievably hard to bootstrap from literally zero but like, the cashier at the gas station really doesn't feel like it's the play unless you live in a tiiiiny ass town.

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#346

Post by user_7832 »

petesergeant wrote: post #307
seer wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why HN has the idea that IKEA is cheap trash - yes some of the things in their catalog are not very high quality, but they seem to be very consistent. But more importantly (for me), because they have such a huge catalog, and a propensity to optimise, they ended up with a supremely hackable furniture - everything fits together with everything else, whenever you want to build something - there are tons of…

One nice thing about IKEA furniture is that the price of an item is well connected to its quality, and they offer items in a range of quality levels, so there’s a trustable signal in the price

I don't know if this is specific to where you are, but my experience in IKEAs in NL doesn't fully support that. Some really decent metal products (mini tables/trolleys) can cost $20-40 (what I'd consider more budget friendly), while a $50ish bookshelf uses particleboard. The cheapest deskmat has poor quality but is cheap, but the $20 or $30 top end "fancy" one is still some kind of plastic.

My learning has been - find the good deals where they are (there are some really good ones!), but check the quality of everything first.

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#347

Post by nakedneuron »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #211
nakedneuron wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think immediacy is key here. A bad sofa that falls apart after five years of use is a delayed loss (that fallacy has to have be discovered already). A small investment, prospects of gambling it and the inability to see through seem to play a role so lottery (poor people's tax) comes to mind. > pace of fraud Isn't it if the stakes are high more eyes are watching and thus quality control works (better)? I'm at a loss…

What I meant by pace of fraud: think of US military R&D around World War II and the Cold War, vs. now., and whether they translate into anything actually useful for the soldiers in the field. What I think is a big part of the difference is that back then, US was fighting with peer powers and it was possible for it to lose . Over time, it transitioned to only fighting wars with much weaker opponents - wars with no "lo…

I know little of U.S. foreign policy, but here's my unoriginal take. Those conflicts the U.S. engage in are the test beds for its military industry. Wheels need to spin and shrinking the industry is not an option. What's at stake is deterrence, thus yes survival, and I think it works quite well for them. In regards to "fraud".. you mean corruption.. or defunct machinery?.. in the former case I'd say it's a bonus for standing by.

Thanks for standing by.. :)

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#348

Post by petesergeant »

user_7832 wrote: post #346
petesergeant wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One nice thing about IKEA furniture is that the price of an item is well connected to its quality, and they offer items in a range of quality levels, so there’s a trustable signal in the price

I don't know if this is specific to where you are, but my experience in IKEAs in NL doesn't fully support that. Some really decent metal products (mini tables/trolleys) can cost $20-40 (what I'd consider more budget friendly), while a $50ish bookshelf uses particleboard. The cheapest deskmat has poor quality but is cheap, but the $20 or $30 top end "fancy" one is still some kind of plastic. My learning has been - fin…

I guess I’m thinking intra-product category here. A sofa that costs 2x the price of another, I’m expecting to be 2x the quality

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#349

Post by switch007 »

petesergeant wrote: post #348
user_7832 wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if this is specific to where you are, but my experience in IKEAs in NL doesn't fully support that. Some really decent metal products (mini tables/trolleys) can cost $20-40 (what I'd consider more budget friendly), while a $50ish bookshelf uses particleboard. The cheapest deskmat has poor quality but is cheap, but the $20 or $30 top end "fancy" one is still some kind of plastic. My learning has been - fin…

I guess I’m thinking intra-product category here. A sofa that costs 2x the price of another, I’m expecting to be 2x the quality

I think you would want to be prepared to be disappointed, hah.

Honestly, IKEA have made so many cuts in quality since 2021, and increased prices, it's barely recognisable.

https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/viskafors-3-seat-sofa-lejde-ant... here's a £1100 sofa (2x the famous Ektorp). Sure, it's got a bit of solid wood, some slightly higher density foam in some areas, some cheap springs, but that's about it. It's got very poor quality fabric according to the reviews - a trend in their sofas the last couple of years.

I would bet if you picked up the corner of /any/ IKEA sofa (I've tested maybe 6-8), there would be significant flex. Ditto if you rocked the back.

There really is very little variance in quality in reality

Re: Parable of the Sofa

#350

Post by 082349872349872 »

082349872349872 wrote: post #279
selimthegrim wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it’s where I think, my brother already lives there but the immigration process is formidable.

(I've edited the original post; could easily be where you think) The process became much easier for our neighbours while I've been here, which, being zero-sum for available slots, is to say it became more formidable for the Old Country. As of today, I wouldn't be surprised if it's easier to get in from Tunisia than from Texas. It could be tougher; no one ever asked me if I could make a roux :-) EDIT: I couldn't rapid…

Oops: went a level too deep on Stern-Brocot, that should be ~2/3 (more than germany, at ~55%)
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