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In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

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Re: In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it seems like a huge personality disconnect and critical lack of comprehension that other people simply dont like what they do. Ive spent a lot of time in excellent dense European cities and it still doesnt appeal to me. I dont like going out to bars, crowds, or general city life. I like privacy, having a workshop, chickens, fruit trees, and a garden. I like having a huge kitchen, a pantry, a meat smoker, and h…

Well meet me. I hated having to spend hours taking care of a garden instead of going for a bike ride. Also you can have a workshop while having high density. Suburban is probably the worst of both world for me: expensive, impractical and not even quiet/isolated enough for when you need that. I'd rather have a flat in a european city + a small rural house in the middle of nowhere than a house in US suburbia. All this…

Im all for options and understand that my preferences are not the same as others.

Im mostly rejecting the idea that this is a "solved problem" and dense flats are the best for everyone.

It probably isnt worth trying to communicate the folks in this thread that think everyone should be forced to live in government owned flats which are assigned based on family size

Re: In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

#342

I kinda hate that this topic almost always devolves into similar arguments about what exactly is induced demand. Despite that, these conversation threads did give me a new perspective on induced demand that I feel is worth sharing. That new perspective - I would now say that induced demand relates the efficiency of how well a resource is used to the cost of using that resource. If cost of use is high, then the resour…

It's just Jevon's paradox. High prices suppress demand because possible use cases are infeasible/unprofitable, but lower costs make them possible until you have total oversaturation (but e.g. subsidized US corn results in it used in all products!)

Re: In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s hard to talk about the topic at very high level but for many American cities like Columbus where I live the answer lies at least partially converting surface parking lots in downtown areas into economically productive assets like housing or businesses which are also not extractive to the local economy. This density makes it easier to walk and bike as well. Many cities, including Columbus, are expanding bus rapid…

> the bus is a strictly worse version of the car in these kinds of cities You can change that by giving them their own lane so they don't get stuck in traffic with the cars, let them go where cars may not go, give priority at traffic lights etc. That is what they do where I live.

It will change the habits of some but it’s not enough. We should continue to build out bus infrastructure and enhance bus rapid transit especially in the ways you mention, but those efforts won’t result in the large change we need to shift away from vehicle-based infrastructure.

Re: In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

#344

I kinda hate that this topic almost always devolves into similar arguments about what exactly is induced demand. Despite that, these conversation threads did give me a new perspective on induced demand that I feel is worth sharing. That new perspective - I would now say that induced demand relates the efficiency of how well a resource is used to the cost of using that resource. If cost of use is high, then the resour…

Induced demand gets thrown around a lot, without understanding why it is invoked. Inducing demand can often be good. We build things so that we can use or sell them. A railroad should induce new trips just as a highway should. The problem with highway expansion in 2024 in the US is that each new mile of highway gets ever increasingly more expensive and hard to build and produces diminishing returns, at high cost to t…

> Inducing demand can often be good.

I would quibble here, it depends. Another example I am thinking of is toilet paper during the pandemic when it was in short supply. At that time, when we were counting squares of toilet paper and predicting when you were going to run out, people used their toilet paper very efficiently. When it is plentiful, suddenly you don't care about using every last bit as efficiently as possible.

In my previous example in the parent post, everyone is still making it to the grocery store and/or work, but it's a question of how efficient people are incentivized to be when making those trips.

When it comes to highways, I'm guessing that it's more the case that inefficient/unnecessary trips become more economical than typically enabling people to make a given trip at all. I know a lot of people are pretty lazy about planning their trips, I'm guessing there are a lot more of those people than those that cannot go to a city because it requires 45 minutes instead of 30. Just my guess there though, and certainly that is context dependent.

I like your points regarding efficiency of cost for expansion as well. Though, my point is more that induced demand is the minimum efficiency of a resource someone is willing to incur for it to be worth the cost of using that resource. That latter part, is a bit independent of the cost of building that resource in the first place, though that construction cost is still an important thing to consider.

Re: In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I have with reducing minimum parking is that in rural areas it doesn’t make sense. That doesn’t stop people in my rural town of 2,500 houses advocating for reducing parking requirements.

Well, today's rural areas are tomorrow's suburbs. If you want to stop the rural areas from becoming a car slave suburban sprawl, then you need to do something differently than what we did in the past. It sounds like people in your town are forward thinking. Plus, if there is plenty of room then you'll still have parking, until that land becomes more valuable for something else.

I consider it so forward thinking as to be unrealistic.

I hear what you are saying but my town is more or less in accessible and a suburb to know where. We don't uber and taxi's after dark should be considered ahead of time. We have minimal mass transit system that essentially connects towns together. If we ever get train service from a metropolitan city I could see it.

Currently I see the people demanding reduced parking requirements as echoing talking points they don't understand.

Re: In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

#346

I kinda hate that this topic almost always devolves into similar arguments about what exactly is induced demand. Despite that, these conversation threads did give me a new perspective on induced demand that I feel is worth sharing. That new perspective - I would now say that induced demand relates the efficiency of how well a resource is used to the cost of using that resource. If cost of use is high, then the resour…

It all depends on how you define "efficiency". For the grocery example, getting food items Just-in-Time would result in fresher food, less wastage and more flexibility.

I would define it as simply number of items per distance traveled. How much you get from a location X is a function of how often you are willing to travel to location X. As the cost of travel goes down, your willingness to increase frequency increases.

Food spoilage does come into play and creates a lower limit on the frequency. At some point you'll buy so much you can neither store it nor consume it before it spoils. At some other point on the other side of the spectrum - the cost to travel is not worth the convenience of buying exactly what you want each day. All in all, people would indeed prefer to go more frequently for less, but there are reasons to not do so.

Thus, high frequency does give flexibility, and that is really important. It's a big reason why people like to have their own car, and do things like buy one weeks of groceries and not a full months at a time. That same flexibility is why people rationally choose to make multiple trips when they could make fewer. I do find it quite interesting to think about the various 'sweet spots' in these equations, and the various constraining factors.

Re: In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

#349
post #342

I kinda hate that this topic almost always devolves into similar arguments about what exactly is induced demand. Despite that, these conversation threads did give me a new perspective on induced demand that I feel is worth sharing. That new perspective - I would now say that induced demand relates the efficiency of how well a resource is used to the cost of using that resource. If cost of use is high, then the resour…

It's just Jevon's paradox. High prices suppress demand because possible use cases are infeasible/unprofitable, but lower costs make them possible until you have total oversaturation (but e.g. subsidized US corn results in it used in all products!)

Indeed, not only is total demand a function of cost, but so is frequency of that demand. If my analogy were an actual hypothesis, it could be tested by checking that those who live closer to a grocery store will have on average a lower grocery bill (per visit) than those that live farther away (normalized by the number of people per household and household income), and the absolute total number of trips taken by those that live close by will be higher.

Which is to say, it's profitable to go to a grocery store for very few items if you live close by. Live farther away, and it's less profitable, perhaps to the point where it's not worth doing unless you buy a lot.

I agree that latent demand becomes a factor for sure as well.

Re: In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

#350

Pipe sizes are 3d, so as you go from 1" to 2" to 3" to 4" the amount of throughput skyrockets. Roads are flat, not stacked, so you're just somewhat linearly increasing throughput. It might be a bit more since the leftmost lanes can go increasingly faster, but it's nothing like pipes. So it makes sense to try to think of other ways to handle it... that being said, does having 50 more buses actually reduce anything, 10…

> Roads are flat, not stacked, so you're just somewhat linearly increasing throughput.

Per-lane efficiency drops with additional lanes. It doesn't stay the same, and definitely does not increase.

> that being said, does having 50 more buses actually reduce anything, 100 more?

Yes. A typical city transit bus can hold 40 seated people, and a "crush" capacity of about 70. Coach numbers are relatively similar give or take. Typical rush-hour max capacity is probably around 60 which is fairly comfortable.

40-60 people taking up about the space of three cars, instead of (if we're being very gracious) 20 cars, to as many as seventy cars.

If we graciously figure that when stopped in traffic each car is 15 feet (length of a compact SUV) and there is one foot of spacing between them (also gracious), that means anywhere from 320ft to over one thousand feet of lane usage, compressed into about forty feet.

Now think about how much roadway space is used when those vehicles are traveling; those cars have to accordion out to have, say, about one car length between each of them (likely more, but we're being gracious.) Now you're looking at 600 to two thousand feet of lane.

This is why bus-only lanes (either during rush hour or all day) and traffic signal prioritization for busses is gaining popularity in municipalities. One full bus erases two thousand feet worth of cars on that road.

We should be looking at the status quo as "look at how much road capacity is being wasted by single occupant vehicles."

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