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End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

theguardian.com

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Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#341

Post by cess11 »

dindobre wrote: post #205
cess11 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably not, they'll still put the money in Luxembourg and Switzerland, but they can exchange gold and diamonds and stuff like that from shady dealings in Africa for money there. If you look into it you'll find that it's a nice marketplace for israeli oligarchs running operations in DR Congo, e.g. for diamonds which Israel exports unexpected amounts of, and you'll also find that the Rapid Support Forces/Janjaweed in…

I find your second paragraph especially interesting, do you have a source (e.g. a book) to get deeper into this?

Been a while since I last had a run through books about this and no time at the moment to go remind myself about titles, but I can give some links to start digging.

Main export of Israel: https://oec.world/en/profile/bilateral-product/diamonds/repo...

Local presentation of mining sites: https://en.israelidiamond.co.il/wikidiamond/diamond-mining-m...

Some historical background and interesting sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_industry_in_Israel

As mentioned, reading up on Dan Gertler is a good idea too.

Sudan complaining recently about foreign involvement: https://sudantribune.com/article283888/

If you look into Omar al-Bashir's 'career' you'll likely find it enlightening about the degree of Gulf involvement in Sudan. The Gulf states are really, really good at PR, they can afford the biggest, most efficient firms to run it for them, but there are a lot of books about the colonial history in the region and how trade and economics have evolved over the last century.

The strategically importantly located island of Socotra has a really interesting history, lots of pirates and stuff. Since 2018 UAE is occupying it and lately Yemen news sources have claimed that Israel is in on it, and the US DoD has been asked whether they're there too. Starting point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_Emirates_takeover_...

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#342

Post by hollerith »

inslee1 wrote: post #338
yreg wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>about having a good city to live in I don't want to open a flame war, but I visited the city during the Expo and its a highway with a stripe of skyscrapers on each side and slums beyond. It's impossible to walk anywhere. (To be fair, the public transport is pretty good, as long as you live next to the highway.) When I read "a good city to live in" I imagine something like Vienna.

"I went to and there's tall buildings and slums beyond" Even Vienna has slum-like areas, every major city does. Not sure how that's a knock against Dubai. I'm not even sure what slums you saw in Dubai, Having lived there for a few years there's definitely low income housing in certain parts but I'd struggle to call them slums.

GP knows there are large numbers of oppressed people living in Dubai and concludes there must be large slums.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#343

Post by apexalpha »

brodo wrote: post #84

I recommend these YouTube essays on it: - Adam Something: NEOM Is The Parody Of The Future [1] - Thunderf00t: NEOM, The Line: BUSTED!! [2] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB_X5ZUcZlE [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyWaax07_ks

This Adam Something also has a video essay where he trashes battery electric busses as the most ridiculously bad idea ever.

At the time of publishing thousands and thousands were already on the road for years in the Netherlands.

This guy checks what his audience already thinks on a subject and then makes up arguments to go along with it.

Take it with a kilo of salt.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#344

Post by antonvs »

avar wrote: post #204
alangibson wrote: post #134

I want to see someone seriously analyze what would happen if there was a power loss to the Line. Hundreds of thousands of people in a glass box in 50C weather with no AC sounds like a recipe for a record breaking mass casualty event.

With the caveat that all published "plans" for the thing were probably meant as a PR stunt the plan called for passively cooling it[1]. That part actually doesn't seem implausible, it's right on the Red Sea, which is quite hot on the surface, but cools down as you you go deeper into it[2]. So (and this is just my speculation) they could have a large undersea pipeline to a depth of say 1km, and use the heat the buildi…

I love the way people describe what's basically a fantasy as though it could be implemented tomorrow.

Do a Mars colony next.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#345

Post by ponector »

llamaimperative wrote: post #312
ponector wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it the House who refused to send 20+ years old heavy weapons to Ukraine since 2022?

We did send huge amounts of aid in 2022, including 38 HIMARS, 2,000 Stingers, 100,000 anti-armor systems, 250 artillery guns, 9,000 anti-tank missiles, and 35,000 small arms. Then Republicans put a hard right Christian theocrat, who’s totally captured by the hard-right wing of the party, in charge of the House and everything has stalled.

Yes, huge amount of light weapons, short range. I've specifically mentioned heavy weapons. It is hard to fight against heavy weapons with light one, isn't it?

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#346

Post by cs02rm0 »

No great surprise, they have form here.

The Saudis announced six megaprojects in 2005. King Abdullah Economic City was the only one that went anywhere. I believe it was supposed to have 2 million people and reached about 7 thousand.

They've kicked people out of the area, killed at least one person, trashed the area with initial construction efforts (I've driven past) and now the inevitable seems to be coming to pass already.

They still have time but they need to do something to diversify from oil in the way Dubai has eventually. Building a new Dubai, with a different legal framework (only rumoured for Neom AFAIK), doesn't seem like the worst idea to me, but starting with an overly ambitious design probably isn't the way to get traction. The Middle East do love a pissing contest though so starting small isn't what they're into.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#347

Post by geocar »

zaroth wrote: post #300
geocar wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_Stat... In 2021, inmates in federal prisons earned between $0.23 to $1.15 per hour.

Well, yes, because they are literal criminal prisoners, and exempt from the 13th amendment. The workers in SA aren’t criminals being jailed for some crime.

https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/constitution-check-do-in...

The US believes the constitution ends at its borders and people; This is what the law is in SA.

I can't say I like it either, but I think jailing human beings and enslaving them to the benefit of others is simply not Good.

If you can agree then maybe we can work together to fix it in the US in a lifetime or two, but there's frankly little we can do about SA if we can't show the world what being Good looks like in America.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#348

Post by Y_Y »

ethanbond wrote: post #259
oliviabenson wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are complicit (if not responsible). Accepted practice isn’t an excuse for indifference but criticising your own country isn’t a free pass to criticise the culture of others without challenging our culpability. If we sincerely want to help the citizens of these countries that we believe to be oppressed, we have options that we choose not to take. We could offer cultural asylum, give people a route to access our cul…

Was slavery-era America worse on the dimension of human rights or just different? Why does cultural relativism excuse horrors of actual modern people with access to and awareness of all modern thinking, modern technology, and modern examples of societies who achieved moral progress, but we’re perfectly comfortable saying slave owners of the past are responsible for their crimes despite being raised by slave owners in…

I agree with your point, but I think it's not fair to blame cultural relativism. Relativism means not prescribing a single morality applicable in all contexts. That's something on which reasonable people will differ. If you do accept it though, you're not obliged to permit everything.

For example I think that there were relatively moral people who lived in e.g. the US and Saudi Arabia ~300 years ago and accepted slavery unquestioningly. It would have been better if they had questioned and rejected it, but I don't think they are evil for not doing so. In the modern US I think that only someone tremendously immoral would accept and participate in enslaving others.

This belief makes me a moral relativist (at least by some reasonable definitions). All the same I think I'm much closer aligned with your feelings on the morality of modern Middle Eastern society than GP.

All that to say, being a moral relativist allows you to have weird dissonant views, but it doesn't require it.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#349

Post by atonse »

throwaway63467 wrote: post #102

I think these projects mostly exist to funnel away / launder money, no one really thinks they will become reality. A multi-decade mega project is just a great way to divert large amounts of money without raising too much suspicion as there’s very little oversight of what’s really happening there.

What money would they need to launder? Isn’t most oil money just regular revenue in Aramco?

Just curious, it wouldn’t surprise me but wasn’t sure.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#350

Post by dangerwill »

apexalpha wrote: post #343
brodo wrote: post #84

I recommend these YouTube essays on it: - Adam Something: NEOM Is The Parody Of The Future [1] - Thunderf00t: NEOM, The Line: BUSTED!! [2] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB_X5ZUcZlE [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyWaax07_ks

This Adam Something also has a video essay where he trashes battery electric busses as the most ridiculously bad idea ever. At the time of publishing thousands and thousands were already on the road for years in the Netherlands. This guy checks what his audience already thinks on a subject and then makes up arguments to go along with it. Take it with a kilo of salt.

I totally agree in broad strokes about Adam Something. He's an unserious urbanist meme YouTuber essentially.

However, battery electric buses are seriously more expensive and a bigger carbon sink than a trolley bus network. But governments don't like to build infrastructure in the west and some people don't like the look of overhead wires. This isn't economically or environmentally efficient but those preferences can cause those issues to be ignored. Until the high cost of battery replacements kick in after the initial honeymoon period...

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