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Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

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Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#341
post #294
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If "just don't buy at the monopoly" would work, we wouldn't need antitrust regulation.

So your thesis is that it doesn't work. We are all enslaved to keep buying iPhones and have no free choice? Or is it that even if no one bought an iPhone, Apple as a company would be able to keep it's market position? This is why Apple keeps winning in the court cases, because the argument as you just presented it lacks any kind of rigor.

There is only one other choice and for the first 5 years of the iPhone this choice was less competitive. Stop pretending things like that happen in a second and stop pretending every user can make the effort to switch after investing so much (money, time) on a particular platform. You also need to understand that for many, changing phones (or even tech in general) is something that happens only when it truly becomes necessary and this is every 3 to 5 years at best. You can't pretend that telling people to go buy a new hundreds of euros device just to fix an issue created by a corporation greediness is a realistic solution. It's not even something that someone who isn't into tech could realistically foresee before making their purchasing decision, pretending otherwise is bonkers.

You are just as disingenuous as Apple is and it is sad that you are defending the greed of a trillion dollar corp.

That being said, considering their behavior I'm pretty sure Apple has lost the good will of quite a few people, that are indirectly influential on the purchase of many tech devices of their social circle.

I am personally an Apple customer since the first iPod (was a teenager back then) and lots of Mac's plus many iPhones including the first but now I am pretty sure that my next smartphone will definitely not be an iPhone. Not that hard decision considering the insane pricing on Apple Silicon Macs (RAM/SSD) I had already started using my Mac less and my PC a lot more. And I make sure to avoid recommending anything Apple to anyone and actively discourage any purchase from them. I'm pretty sure I am not the only one doing that and I am pretty sure that Apple will feel this after a while...

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#342
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, laws are taken as very literal, and any technicality that can be exploited usually will be. In Europe, they’re far more focused on the spirit of the law and don’t put up with games. On one hand it seems like Apple is trying to take a US style approach, but on the other they must have European lawyers on staff explaining how that won’t work. One might conclude that it’s a calculated risk, or a stalling tact…

I find it far fetched that Apple would either hire terrible lawyers that lead them astray or competent lawyers that they then ignore. I agree that they are probably hoping to go to court. Maybe I’m just too American to understand but the idea of “the spirit” of the law seems ridiculous. If you want the law to force Apple to allow slide loading then pass a law that says that. If you want a law that forces Apple to all…

It is impossible to interpret many laws literally, even in the US. Calling this sloppy legislating is just being ignorant of the fact.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#343
post #242
post #170

A huge problem is the DMA falls short in addressing a significant violation of property rights concerning the hardware. At the core of property ownership lies the right of exclusion – the ability to exclude or include something on one's personal property. This right is quite important and can even be used to derive most other property rights; please see the linked paper at the bottom. However, Apple's policies with i…

Wouldn't the best way to look at this to be that the phone is Apple's property, and therefore they have the right to do anything with it? Including not selling to you all the property rights, and reserving some for themselves? For me, the central contradiction of this kind of rights-based argument is this--the stronger you make property rights, the more justified actions like Apples seems to be, because, after all, t…

Well, if they really own the phone, you had better make a strong argument on why I should pay for it.

If users were renting the phone for less than it cost to make, I guess you could have an argument about the device just being a necessary tool to access a service, including the app store (just like the alm-in-one modem/routers of telcos in EU).

But that is hardly the case, users pay for iPhones, and quite a lot of money at that, in fact much more in average than buyers of other brands. So now you REALLY need to explain how they can sell the phone for such a large amount of money and still retain ownership because the way I see it one of these statements cannot be right or it would be both illegal and something users really wouldn't agree to if it were presented like that to them.

The reality is that Apple is abusing its power over a device they already transferred ownership to someone else, because they already got money for it. Any other arguments are a mischaracterization of the situation and the only reason Apple got away with so much control so far is because we collectively (as a society) didn't completely understand what it meant.

But now we are trying to fix and bad faith argument like yours do not help at all...

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main thrust of his argument seems to be that developers should be able to engage in price discrimination. That's cool and all, but it seems anti-competitive to me as a customer. I don't want to pay more just because I don't have time to write each developer and beg for a discount. Remember, Amazon famously had to back down from advertising different prices to Americans in urban and rural areas due to customer bac…

The thing is, why should you have to pay extra to offer better customer service? With a product like Hey, you're signing up for their email service. You might use that service on your desktop, web browser, Android phone or iPhone. It's more than a little nuts on Apple's part to try to force a product like that through the iPhone system, especially because if I start using an email account I'm going to continue using…

[deleted]

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think we might be arguing orthogonal points. Correct. You seem entirely concerned with the specifics of what rules Apple chooses to enforce and whether those rules allow developers alternatives to paying 30% of their revenue to Apple. But I'm not talking about an alternative to paying the fee, I'm talking about an alternative to having to follow Apple's arbitrary rules period. What if I decide I don't like the te…

My original intent was just to explore the complexity of the situation. People clearly want to cut them out of the process, but this requires justification just as much as Apple's current stance. The question is: why should they be forced to do what you want, vs. you being forced to comply with what they want? I'm sympathetic to issues related to their dominant market position and recognize that there are multiple wa…

> People clearly want to cut them out of the process, but this requires justification just as much as Apple's current stance.

Why should I need to justify my right to sell software to my customers without interference from an unrelated third party? Just because Apple has the technical ability to hold my customers hostage, that doesn't mean they have a right to.

> why should they be forced to do what you want, vs. you being forced to comply with what they want

Neither of these need to happen. Apple should not be forced to do anything other than to stop blocking their competitors from the market. And Apple's competitors should not be forced to comply with what Apple wants either unless Apple can entice them by offering something valuable in exchange, beyond a mob-style protection racket. (Nice application you have there. It would be a shame if someone were to block your customers from running it.)

> I personally prefer the high bar required for apps to get published.

Then buy your apps exclusively from Apple's app store. Nobody's forcing you to leave Apple's walled garden, Apple's just not allowed to be the only game in town anymore.

> eBay and Amazon also impose rules on sales

I can sell my product without going through eBay and Amazon. I can't sell my iOS app if Apple installs code on my customer's devices that blocks it from running.

>> I either comply with all of Apple's demands (however reasonable or unreasonable they might be), or I can't sell working software to my customers.

> This could be said of almost every market and community in existence.

What? No. What other market exists where one single company is able to act as a governing body, dictating the rules which their competitors must follow in order to be allowed to exist?

> The distinction between "reasonable" and "unreasonable" currently seems to be based on personal preference, the nature of an app, or the stage of a company.

Right, which is why different companies should be allowed to decide for themselves whether they consider Apple's terms reasonable, rather than Apple being able to essentially hold them at gunpoint and make any demands they want.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#346
post #343
post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't the best way to look at this to be that the phone is Apple's property, and therefore they have the right to do anything with it? Including not selling to you all the property rights, and reserving some for themselves? For me, the central contradiction of this kind of rights-based argument is this--the stronger you make property rights, the more justified actions like Apples seems to be, because, after all, t…

Well, if they really own the phone, you had better make a strong argument on why I should pay for it. If users were renting the phone for less than it cost to make, I guess you could have an argument about the device just being a necessary tool to access a service, including the app store (just like the alm-in-one modem/routers of telcos in EU). But that is hardly the case, users pay for iPhones, and quite a lot of m…

// bad faith argument like yours do not help at all.. // Lets take a step back mate :-) and try to look at the situation the way it is, not the way we wish it would be.

Software has always been licensed, not sold. And the licensing agreement has always come with terms and conditions dictating what you can and cannot do with your copy of the software, e.g. it can be stipulated that you don't attempt to disassemble it, or make copies and give them away to your friends, etc etc.

In particular, you will lose your license to use the software if you break any of those terms and conditions.

And inasmuch as an iPhone is just an expensive brick without the software, the reality is that Apple will always have very broad discretion in stipulating how you will use your iPhone.

I don't like it any more than you do, but that's just the reality of the situation, and acknowledging the ugly truth is the very antithesis of a bad faith argument.

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