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Apple's bad faith 27% tax on web purchases

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Re: Apple's bad faith 27% tax on web purchases

#341

Post by jrochkind1 »

somenameforme wrote: post #320
jrochkind1 wrote: post #4

Can anyone provide a link to context on what OP is talking about, for those who don't know it? I don't understand what Apple is actually doing from this tweet/thread. Are they are somehow managing to force even payment links from ordinary web sites in an ordinary web browser (Safari?) to go through them as payment processor? (How?) Or is this a new rule for app store apps (what is the new rule?) Or a new payment stru…

As it seems many are not clear, here is a quick and abbreviated background: The case is primarily about Epic's Fortnite game. Fortnite is free to play, but makes billions of dollars based on in-game microtransactions for things like in-game cosmetics. Apple charges developers 30% on each of these transactions. Epic didn't like this and so started offering users a way to pay on their own site instead of going through…

Thank you! That was a clear easy explanation.

Re: Apple's bad faith 27% tax on web purchases

#342

Post by robertlagrant »

Jyaif wrote: post #338
robertlagrant wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt the EU has the mindset or ability to cultivate companies that are able to compete with Apple.

The companies that offer alternative (and likely cheaper) appstores could be american or asian for all the EU cares. The point is to allow competition.

What I mean is that this is regulating at the wrong level, or perhaps that regulation is a poor substitute for what might be more useful. If there were more competitors in the phone side of things, then mono app stores would matter less, and if people cared about them, eventually get competed out.

The problem I'm highlighting is that the EU itself hasn't created any phone OSes that have survived to this point. If it were more conducive to that, then regulation, which is a very poor substitute for actual competition, wouldn't be needed.

Re: Apple's bad faith 27% tax on web purchases

#343

Post by robertlagrant »

NetOpWibby wrote: post #97
robertlagrant wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is forced to sell on Apple either, if that's your logic.

Especially since they aren't the biggest mobile OS as Android fans like to point out. It's only a problem because iOS has most of the mobile profits.

But that's the odd thing - it has most of the profits, despite the alternatives having the ability to add alternative app stores. Why is that? My guess is because the experience that produces is valuable to people, so they buy it if they can afford it.

Re: Apple's bad faith 27% tax on web purchases

#344

Post by smoldesu »

QuadmasterXLII wrote: post #184
smoldesu wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the main reasons I buy things from Apple (on my device) and Amazon (if it's a physical good) You don't have a choice, from Apple. With Amazon you can buy your Purina and flip-flops off a third-party, but where else do you buy a calculator app for iPhone? The problem with this steelman is that giving third-parties more options should change nothing for you. If you're ideologically opposed to anyone that doesn…

There was a benefit to the consumer of the old no-sideloading world, specifically if it's possible to sideload an app then then companies can force you to do it. "Hi, this is the company that owns your mortgage. You can now only pay through our app which you have to sideload because it's also a rootkit." Why do consumers have the attitude "I will buy apple specifically to make you suffer through the apple app store a…

It's an interesting hypothetical, but not realistic in countries with loan regulation. Not to mention, NSO Group has shown us that you can install a rootkit using built-in iMessage and zero-click exploits. I don't think manually-installed malware would lower the current bar, especially considering how "dangerously" capable the phone and web browser already is. Arguing against anything that can be used against the user would see the phone, iPod and internet communicator removed from your iPhone.

> The answer is 20 years of abominable behaviour by corporate app teams.

I feel like you're not going to like my answer to "Why Apple is facing multinational antitrust scrutiny" then.

Re: Apple's bad faith 27% tax on web purchases

#345

Post by smoldesu »

robertlagrant wrote: post #337
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no point making bad analogies. The point is that "you have a choice" doesn't mean anything when the choice is between something you don't want and some impractical alternative which is even less of a solution than the thing you don't want. > If you target one company's customers, you can't complain about a lack of competition. But you're not -- you're doing the opposite. You want to sell your app to everyon…

> How are you supposed to do that? By doing the tasks that don't require as much specialism, across more vendors. You can target who you like on a spectrum of niche but expensive jobs to mass-market but cheaper jobs. I would only object to people choosing niche but expensive, and then complaining about the niche. > This is why Right to Repair is a thing, and it's weird that your analogy to something you think should…

> Scornful people have always existed, but that doesn't mean they should be especially listened to.

Are you describing consumer lobbyists or Apple, with these words?

Re: Apple's bad faith 27% tax on web purchases

#346

Post by brandon272 »

aurareturn wrote: post #317
brandon272 wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing nonsensical about developers wanting better treatment or a better deal from a company asking for 30% of their gross margin. Insofar that Walmart extracts margin out of its small suppliers, we don't see a lot of third parties sitting on the sidelines telling suppliers trying to negotiate better contracts that they need to shut up, pay up and that the third parties are "on Walmarts side". To the extent that sma…

Nothing nonsensical about developers wanting better treatment or a better deal from a company asking for 30% of their gross margin. I was replying to a person who thinks Apple needs to provide everything for free.

Apple allows developers to distribute their apps on MacOS “for free”, so I’m not sure why asking for similar treatment on iOS is considered such a bizarre, insane request.

Re: Apple's bad faith 27% tax on web purchases

#347

Post by echelon »

echelon wrote: post #280
1000100_1000101 wrote: post #262

Epic says this is about protecting small developers... which, frankly, is BS. Epic charges $100 per game in their store, vs. Apple's $99/yr for access to the store, and the latest tools. This is pretty much a wash, unless you're not regularly releasing games. Epic charges 12% for their game store. For most developers, those earning less than $1M, Apple charges 15%. So again, pretty much a wash. Epic doesn't take a fe…

I don't have to build an Unreal Engine game. You can use Godot or Bevy or Lumberyard or whatever. You can then distribute it over the web to customers. I have to build an Apple App Store app. Apple controls access to over half of US customers. Not just gamers. All customers of all types.

I'm wholly convinced there's a cabal of Apple engineers downvoting these.

My posts go from +4 to -1 overnight.

Re: Apple's bad faith 27% tax on web purchases

#348

Post by slinkyblack »

freetanga wrote: post #312
machomaster wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you are comparing Epic's prices to Apples' instead of comparing to Epic's actual game store competitor Steam.

I believe the issue is on access to the target operating system (iOS) rather than storefronts. Steam does not sell iOS software. They sell games for Mac, Windows and Linux which you can buy also directly or at a competitor such as GOG, if the developer chooses to. To sell into the iOS ecosystem as a Dev you can only do it via Apple so far. Epic wants to sell their own iOS multiplayer games and in app lootboxes withou…

the 30% only applies to digital goods.

Re: Apple's bad faith 27% tax on web purchases

#349

Post by NoPedantsThanks »

turquoisevar wrote: post #269
NoPedantsThanks wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how Apple thinks they're going to measure the transactions that take place. Simply clicking on the link and visiting the third-party-payment site doesn't prove anything, because the user could bail out before paying.

Mainly two ways. One is by tracking outgoing links via a specific framework that needs to be used, the ruling only provides for Apple having to allow linking out, no restrictions on Apple’s part for requiring a certain way of doing it. The other is the courts explicitly affirming Apple’s right to audit as a part of them stating that the commission will still be owed regardless. The latter is important because it allo…

Thanks for the rundown. What's the basis of the perceived annoyance though? What was the district court supposed to do differently?

Re: Apple's bad faith 27% tax on web purchases

#350

Post by NetOpWibby »

robertlagrant wrote: post #343
NetOpWibby wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially since they aren't the biggest mobile OS as Android fans like to point out. It's only a problem because iOS has most of the mobile profits.

But that's the odd thing - it has most of the profits, despite the alternatives having the ability to add alternative app stores. Why is that? My guess is because the experience that produces is valuable to people, so they buy it if they can afford it.

Bingo.

Yet another example of "bigger doesn't mean better," which is also why Google decided to step into the ring with their Pixel products.

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