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Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

nytimes.com

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Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#341

Post by wil421 »

typedef_struct wrote: post #200
resolutebat wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, when you say "labor union", people think of a factory worker standing in a picket line outside some dinosaur car assembly plant in Flint, Michigan that's about to close anyway. The media has very successfully demonized unions, and many skilled workers believe the company line that unions drive down average wages, make it impossible to fire useless people, charge heavy membership fees, etc.

I usually think actors, writers, athletes, doctors, lawyers.

What unions do doctors and lawyers belong to? Never hear of unions for these professions in the US.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#342

Post by rafabulsing »

ngrilly wrote: post #76
nly wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait until your manager is laid off and you're talking to them afterward. This has happened to me twice in my career and both times its like you're talking to a whole different person. In my cynical opinion, being that different person is the number 1 trait companies look for when selecting managers

How different were they (your managers) before and after being laid off?

This episode of Planet Money is a good demonstration of that: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/08/28/435583328/epis...

In summary: Patty McCord helped create the company culture in Netflix not ever holding on to people, if your position becomes slightly redundant or your performance falters for a bit, you're out. She apparently called herself "the queen of the good goodbyes". She says that she does not like the word "fired", that people are just "moving on" and that this is good for everyone involved. At one point in the interview, she gleefully recounts admonishing an employee she let go for crying about about it.

The twist being that she herself was eventually fired as well. The interview does not go very deep into this because "she doesn't like to talk about it", and just says that leaving Netflix was "terrible, painful and sad".

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#343

Post by christophilus »

otikik wrote: post #108
nly wrote: post #35

My firm made billions last year too and just laid off hundreds of engineers (a decent %) Some of the best engineers, those that I respected the most, went. People who make no sense. After last year's layoffs they told us they were "done" and it was "all behind us". Last year then turned out to a better year financially than 2022 (we have access to the top line numbers) You can't trust anything anyone above you in the…

I see what you are saying. I am an engineer-turned-EM and you don't know me, so please take everything I say with a grain of salt: > Your job is NOT safe. Nothing will make execs happier than having this line of thought popularized amongst engineers. It will allow them to hire cheaper, and exploit existing engineers more. I think a better way to put it is: "A job is not your family, and a job is not your identity. Yo…

> offshore your life's direction to the company

That's a good way of putting it. I've let it happen to me in the past, and I've seen it happen many times.

Your comment is solid advice.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#344

Post by killerstorm »

offices wrote: post #111
mindwok wrote: post #98

I'm surprised to see so many comments here taking layoffs personally, or talking about how layoffs are stupid. Layoffs are not personal, and the corollary to that is that you should never treat your company as a friend. It's a company trying to maximize value. Also, layoffs do work. Almost every large, successful company has done them at some stage. They are an expected, and necessary, part of operating a company and…

When a company has embedded itself so deeply in public life - globally - it's reasonable to have strong feelings about its actions. When we say layoffs work, are we considering the way the same companies overhired just a few years ago, harming the rest of the employment market? Do we remember this in later discussions when we treat these companies as prescient hiveminds, in spite of them using overtuned bang-bang con…

I find it a bit hilarious that programmers feel entitled being employed for life in one company. Did you ever consider finishing the project? Getting it done and delivered?

My first paid job as a programmer was like that. We made an exam software for university, a complete package covering the process from authoring test questions to making reports.

We made it in 6 months and it was done. Finished. Working. There was some maintenance/improvement, but that was a separate deal. We did not expect university to employ us for life to maintain it.

Shouldn't that be a norm?

Like, yeah, obviously Google has a lot of projects, so they can allocate programmers to do something different after something is done. But they didn't promise employment for life, did they?

Obviously, people like being securely employed. But, perhaps, that should be addressed at societal level - e.g. unemployment benefits.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#345

Post by foobazgt »

sjfjsjdjwvwvc wrote: post #296
ponector wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a business relationship, but they always trying to convince employees that it is not. That it is a family, a friendship relationship. You should be reliable, you should help everyone in your "family". If you leave your "family" abruptly it is a kind of betrayal. Also funny is brainwashing employees to think that HR is their fried, that HR can help with issues at work. It is a business. Do minimum amount of work…

Honestly a very depressing outlook. If I would really think this way I wouldn’t wanna work in this industry. The only times I was really happy and motivated at work was when I was working within a team where we were really friends - I’m still in contact with most of them years after the fact and some became really close friends - this was outside of IT though. Your line of thinking seems to be common in the IT indust…

The only times I was really happy and motivated at work was when I was working within a team where we were really friends

Ditto!

A business is made of employees, but the employees are not the business. Sometimes that means decisions have to be made in favor (sometimes arguably) of the business over you.

Understanding the ephemerality of the situation can help you appreciate when it's going well and the people you work with, while helping you be prepared if and when something happens. Hopefully you will have gained a lot more experience, a bigger network of good friends, and have a decent nest egg to take you to the next job.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#346

Post by dukeyukey »

trashtester wrote: post #212
madeofpalk wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not blatantly clear that US's salaries are due to lack of developer unions.

Not that alone, but a lot of the factors that hold European companies back compared to American ones when it comes to innovation come from the same ideology, whether it appears as regulation, taxation or a number of other factors aimed at improving safety and comfort, even if it comes at the cost of liberty and incentive.

> whether it appears as regulation, taxation or a number of other factors aimed at improving safety and comfort

Also stuff like being bereft of energy resources (compared to American oil/gas/solar), having fucking Russia to the East, the cost of rebuilding after WW2, having lots of languages and cultures (limiting effective market size)...

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#347

Post by ken47 »

Google is overrated. It's been obvious for over a decade after they built an interview process that is heavily biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class. You had talking heads yammering about how hard it was to get into Google, which to be honest, made the company even less appealing. Is this a software engineering company or some kind of hyped up nightclub?

Yeah, maybe it's a hard interview if you've been out of college for a while, haven't written classical algorithms professionally for years, and don't want to spend weeks or months of free time bashing your head on leetcode. What isn't pressure tested by the Google interview process? Just about every other skill that is needed to be a good software engineer.

Obviously, Google has some good engineers, but my goodness was the hype around the company offputting.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#348

Post by dukeyukey »

teitoklien wrote: post #145
sinuhe69 wrote: post #127

Seriously, why people in tech are opposed to unions? In Europe, unions and Betriebsrat (works committee) are the norm. Why not in the US?

You add unions in tech, and then wonder why dev salaries in EU and the UK are so abysmally low.

> why dev salaries in EU and the UK are so abysmally low

American dev salaries are the exception. It's the rest of the world where they're not outstanding.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#349

Post by ChatGTP »

ken47 wrote: post #347

Google is overrated. It's been obvious for over a decade after they built an interview process that is heavily biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class. You had talking heads yammering about how hard it was to get into Google, which to be honest, made the company even less appealing. Is this a software engineering company or some kind of hyped up nightclub? Yeah, maybe it's a hard interview if you'v…

I think there is some truth to this for sure, it doesn't mean you're hiring practical / driven people, it means you're likely hiring people who are good at rote memorization.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#350

Post by dukeyukey »

lgkk wrote: post #202
sinuhe69 wrote: post #127

Seriously, why people in tech are opposed to unions? In Europe, unions and Betriebsrat (works committee) are the norm. Why not in the US?

Unions kill innovation, at least in US. And 10-20% of people do the actual work so 80-90% can have the time to complain nonstop while making 400k plus. As an American I don’t really use that many cutting edge tools from Europe on a daily basis. Maybe my Miele vac. On the other hand almost everyone in the world uses something made by American corporations.

> As an American I don’t really use that many cutting edge tools from Europe on a daily basis. Maybe my Miele vac.

Keep in mind Europe exports more to the world market than America does (and more of them are goods versus services). Like yeah, if you live in the US you probably use more American-made tools - that is not true for the rest of the world.

Just looking around my kitchen now - my knives are made in Germany; my coffee grinder in Norway; my toaster in the UK. Then it's mostly made in China (air fryer, microwave, kettle, pressure cooker). The coffee roaster I have packed away is made in South Korea; the 3D printer on the kitchen table is made in Czechia.

I don't think I own a single kitchen tool or appliance made in the US.

EDIT: Actually, yeah I've got an Aeropress made in the US.

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