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Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

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Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#341
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was aware that internal combustion cars catch fire more often. There's a bit of a compensatory difference in severity: EVs don't catch fire as often, but it's especially bad when they do. But hopefully we can quickly move past the era of super-flammable EV batteries even if actual EV fires are rare. I look forward to kicking fossil fuel based cars out of everywhere for reasons unrelated to safety. Or you could say…

The negative externalities of the large-scale strip-mining and fossil-fuel-burning effort to convert all cars to electric will not improve the collective safety of life on Earth. Also, remember that lithium is also a fossil fuel. Electicity is not magic, you're just replacing one fossil fuel with another.

> large-scale strip-mining and fossil-fuel-burning effort to convert all cars to electric

What about the large-scale strip-mining, fossil-fuel-burning, and other absolutely nasty environmental efforts of continuing to use oil? And how much of that oil pulled from the ground is actually recyclable and reusable?

> lithium is also a fossil fuel

Lithium is by definition not a fossil fuel, as it isn't from the remains of long dead living organisms. Fossil fuels are all organic chemistry! Lithium is inorganic!

> you're just replacing one fossil fuel with another.

A significant percentage of the electricity from my wall socket does not come from fossil fuels. And even then, the EV is massively more efficient per mile than an equivalent gas car and the natural gas power plant supplying the non-renewable part is also massively more efficient and less emission producing per watt of power than a car's motor. The break even, even if 100% of the electricity was natural gas, is still like 30,000mi.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#342
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Same cultural process of fueling up at the same place you've always fueled up in about the same amount of time as its always taken. I don't know that people's cultural attraction to fueling at the gas station is high at all. After we got an EV I realised how much I had actually disliked filling the car. Smelly, every time an in your face reminder of the fossil fuels you are burning. Having to go in an queue. Having…

Isn't the long charging time an issue? After a quick search, Tesla needs 30 minutes to charge to 80% with superchargers and this is good for 300 kms. Assuming 120 kmh, this means that about every 2.5 hrs, I need to take a 30 min break. With the old system, I fuel in 2 minutes and I can travel 600 kms on it or approx 6 hrs (assuming 50 litres fuel tank and 7.5 litres per 100 km, and 120 km/h). (I don't have a car, and…

I spend multiple hours a year more time pumping gas than I do waiting on my EV to charge, despite the ICE getting far fewer miles.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This means that the government cannot add taxes on electricity used in vehicles, as it does with gas. You don't think you'll be paying a significant electricity tax once ICE cars are fully phased out? Also, I don't know what you drive but my diesel has quite a bit more range than 350 km. Yours must be quite the guzzler.

Yeah, Texas already charges an additional $400 for EV registration and then $200 annually.

IMO it should just be a mileage check at inspection time. Miles travelled * weight classification coefficient * emissions/fuel type modifier + base registration fees = total yearly car taxes.

But then Texas also just got rid of inspections... :(

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#344
post #188
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. Even Toyota, a big H2 promoter is bailing and announcing high-range. solid-state, fast charging batteries [0, 1, 2]. Makes me wonder if the H2 promotion was just a ruse to misdirect the rest of the industry while it caught up, and possibly even leapfrogged (we'll see if their announcements play out), on battery tech? [0] Toyota Teases Solid-State Batteries in 2027 https://spectrum.ieee.org/toyota-solid-state-bat…

I think Toyota is making these pie-in-the-sky announcements to Osborne[1] other manufacturer's BEVs, and delay electrification too, because Toyota's actual battery tech that exist is far behind their competitors. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect

Yes, real possibility, but note that the direction is still away from H1 and towards batteries

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#345
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the long charging time an issue? After a quick search, Tesla needs 30 minutes to charge to 80% with superchargers and this is good for 300 kms. Assuming 120 kmh, this means that about every 2.5 hrs, I need to take a 30 min break. With the old system, I fuel in 2 minutes and I can travel 600 kms on it or approx 6 hrs (assuming 50 litres fuel tank and 7.5 litres per 100 km, and 120 km/h). (I don't have a car, and…

It's an entirely different paradigm. With an ICE, you can only fuel up at a gas station, but it is fast (not always though, queues, etc.). With an EV you charge overnight at home, and only charge on the road as required, and it can be slow (not all that slow though, not a big problem for us). Depending on your usage and vehicle range, you may never need to charge on the road at all. I wouldn't personally want to own…

> With an ICE, you can only fuel up at a gas station, but it is fast (not always though, queues, etc.).

No. This is the reason many still aren’t switching to an EV. Gas cans exist, the same does not exist for an EV. You can fuel up a liquid fuel vehicle anywhere. An EV must be charged at a specific station, be it at home or some other location.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#346
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All it takes is a new pump at existing gas stations and what becomes more compelling to the consumer flips overnight. Same cultural process of fueling up at the same place you've always fueled up in about the same amount of time as its always taken. It seems like there's a lot lot less inertia to get consumers over that hurdle than the EV hurdle, where charge times are long and convenient chargers not a guarantee in…

Have you ever read up on what storing hydrogen entails? Both at the station and in the cars? The tanks are totally different beasts than gasoline.

As is propane, but we use that currently with no issues.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#347
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All it takes is a new pump at existing gas stations and what becomes more compelling to the consumer flips overnight. Same cultural process of fueling up at the same place you've always fueled up in about the same amount of time as its always taken. It seems like there's a lot lot less inertia to get consumers over that hurdle than the EV hurdle, where charge times are long and convenient chargers not a guarantee in…

Not even close. It requires a whole new delivery network, trucks, pipelines need to be re-sleeved and tons of safety measures. Switching to hydrogen from diesel or gasoline is a non-trivial exercise. And large scale storage is yet another problem. That's hard enough with LNG, LPG, diesel and gasoline, with hydrogen it is much more complex and carries more risk.

Large scale generation of power to support a 100% EV fleet is also an issue. This is why current charging stations are having issues.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#348
post #89

Not saying the oil sector is powerless by any means, and I guess maybe they're going for regulatory capture, but this is a non-starter from an economic reality perspective so I'm not too worried about it. The train is well out of the station for electric vehicles. I believe every car maker (save 1 that I know about) is fully committed to 100% electrified vehicles in the not-too-distant future. I feel like eventually…

It's not just Toyota - it does seem to be a Japanese thing. Honda is also actively producing H2 powered vehicles. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a42796089/2024-honda-cr-v-...

Also Hyundai, which is Korean.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#349

Not saying the oil sector is powerless by any means, and I guess maybe they're going for regulatory capture, but this is a non-starter from an economic reality perspective so I'm not too worried about it. The train is well out of the station for electric vehicles. I believe every car maker (save 1 that I know about) is fully committed to 100% electrified vehicles in the not-too-distant future. I feel like eventually…

> The train is well out of the station for electric vehicles. British government has just postponed it's EV vehicle transition by 5 years, British tabloids are printing articles about how EVs will never work for British uniquely harsh weather

EVs don’t work for a lot of situations. What they are good at is around town driving. Maybe this will change in the future but this is the current reality.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#350
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not so sure that BEVs will reach anything close to 100% of all cars on the road. My primary reason is this: as long as you "only" have 10%, 20%, even 30% BEVs the electric charging infrastructure is mostly free, we already have it. But after that, BEVs will require expensive infrastructure to be built in the electricity transmission grid. Think "we need to dig up all of the roads". Because it's not just cars goin…

No, this has been debunked over and over. People imagine BEVs need to be charged every evening at some super high power. The reality is they need to be charged about once a week (median US commute is 1/10th of typical BEVs range at city speeds), and can charge overnight, or when parked at work, while using less electricity than your air conditioning unit. The grid is designed to handle peak demand (see the "duck curv…

> People imagine BEVs need to be charged every evening at some super high power. The reality is they need to be charged about once a week

Wouldn’t you say this is based on usage? Or do EVs run for a week regardless of distance traveled?

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