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Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

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Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#341
post #2

This behavior of legal loopholes to discount workers should be made illegal. The definition of sub-contractor has got to change and/or have laws/policies in place that actually make sense in a sub contractor relationship. These are shell companies that spin up and exclusively deliver for amazon, they aren't gig workers delivering when they want, they have strict quotas.

Pretty sure this has been solved in other countries by allowing sectorial unions (so in this case all delivery drivers would be in one union and they negotiate collectively regardless of the particular business they work for).

But I don't think these kind of laws can really pass in the USA, the political will is just not there.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone can try and get the Democrat nomination for president, they don't limit it to card carrying Democrats. Bernie Sanders identifies as a Democratic Socialist. You can, of course, call him whatever you want, but it won't make him identify himself differently.

> Anyone can try and get the Democrat nomination for president, Yes, and lots of people do. People who aren’t accepted by other Democrats as part of the team don’t end up with large blocks of convention delegates and a major role in shaping the rules going forward due to that. > they don't limit it to card carrying Democrats No such thing exists, unless you are talking about people who pay membership fees to the DNC,…

Yes, Democrat is just a label that you use to identify yourself, and if Bernie says he isn't a Democrat, he isn't a Democrat.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that people also age out of far left ideas. The 18 year old who's like "hell yeah, ownership is theft, raise the taxes" feels differently when they turn 35 and have to pay those taxes.

I'm well into my 30s, in the top few percent for income in the US, and live in California (one of the highest tax states), and I happily pay them. I'm alive today because of their benefits, and I'd be the worst kind of hypocrite to pull the ladder up after me. People's objection to social safety nets mostly isn't their desire to keep their money. It's a perception that the people who need those safety nets are lazy b…

You're an exception. Plenty of people are just fine with pulling up the ladder after them. Second generation immigrants don't like immigration, people that benefited from free tuition want to make schools paid and so on. It's really insane if you stop to think about it long enough: our whole society is based on the fact that we have each other, and yet, we can't spare a dime for our fellows because we're on a short leash ourselves and 'keeping up' is a big part of our satisfaction. All of this is programmed against you and anybody that wants to change the system is ostracized. And that's all before you get into the really big problems, this is just personal stuff.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mainly, that one city or state doing it will likely cause an influx of sicker people. You can't require a visa to come to, say, Austin TX, and "only to residents who've lived here longer than x" would raise equal protection constitutional issues. (This is the same reason the ACA had the individual mandate, and why said mandate's striking down is likely to result in the ACA's failure or needing significant amending so…

> "only to residents who've lived here longer than x" would raise equal protection constitutional issues States seem to apply residency consideration all the time to college tuition and taxes, among others. Why would equal protection be an issue here? Austin, TX can't implement this on its own without state support, but cities don't have any federal constitutional rights apart from their containing states, so that's…

> States seem to apply residency consideration all the time to college tuition and taxes, among others. Why would equal protection be an issue here?

Because you're either going to have to pick some fairly short period of time - a year or less - which won't be that much of an obstacle to folks seeking healthcare (especially if private healthcare remains available in that interim period), or you'll run afoul of Zobel v. Williams if you try to make a permanent or long-lived distinction.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#345
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real fix is to just stop tying benefit requirements to who the employer is and what the employee's full time status is. A lot of these problems go away with just universal healthcare, and providing benefits beyond pay via society rather than via companies.

Why not mandate things like healthcare no matter how many hours someone is employed. It might hurt some, but if these companies can not survive without workers, they will hire full time. And if they can not afford they don't deserve to exist.

Some people specifically want part time work. Tying things to employment that don't cleanly scale up or down with hours removes useful flexibility.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real fix is to stop tying various benefits to employment, so there'd be no need to worry about who is full time or part time, or who they work for. Unfortunately, changing most of those programs is political suicide, particularly anything health care related.

It's political suicide for Republicans. Left leaning Democrats like Bernie are all for it.

The Republican Party has been becoming more of a populist party. I wouldn’t be surprised if they start backing such policies or universal income as we deal with several societal and economic changes.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real fix is to stop tying various benefits to employment, so there'd be no need to worry about who is full time or part time, or who they work for. Unfortunately, changing most of those programs is political suicide, particularly anything health care related.

The thing is, I see a huge difference between high-end health plans (for example, at places like Meta, which include IVF coverage) and middle-of-the-road plans (like my employer provides) and bare-minimum plans (like MediCal). Which plan would we be talking about for government coverage? I assume barebones plans. In that case, it still matters who you work for, because some employers still provide much better coverag…

He didn't say anything about government coverage. He said to stop tying coverage to employment. Doing the latter doesn't mean we have to switch to government coverage.

Instead of your employer paying you $S salary per year + paying $M per year for the premiums for whatever group plan they use they would pay you $S + $M salary and you would buy whatever health insurance you wanted directly.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#349

I'd be willing to accept a 0.25% less return annually on the S&P index if workers had meaningfully better existences. It might even increase returns if workers could be more productive by having dignified lives. This is the best way to frame thinking about things in our current macroeconomic environment.

I think the issue is that it might not be a small difference. Most companies don't make that much money on a profit per employee basis.

https://i.imgur.com/SF6RGxX.png

Amazon makes $21,000/employee per year and that's just the direct employees, not including all the subcontracted stuff like this. Walmart makes $6,000/employee per year.

Walmart might be an easier example to pick on because they have fewer subcontracted employees and they're on a more stable basis (rather than trying to take over the world like Amazon).

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=wmt+profit+per+employee

From 2012 to 2021, Walmart has ranged from $3,000-8,000 in profit per employee per year. The average hourly wage for for frontline workers at Walmart is $17.50 or around $35,000/year. If Walmart were to increase salaries by $3,500/year (a 10% raise for frontline workers and substantially less for many workers), it would decrease profits by more than half.

So many people think that margins are way better than they are. Whether it's a 10% increase in salaries or a 10% reduction in workload, companies are often operating on thin margins.

You're not talking about accepting a 0.25% less return. You're probably talking about accepting 6-10% less return - unless we start talking about redistribution.

Let's say that Walmart gives their frontline workers a 10% raise and reduces the pay of their knowledge workers to compensate (and for the moment let's say that those knowledge workers can't quit and move to a different job). Then we've potentially created a situation where we've materially made workers lives better.

Are you willing to accept a lower salary for yourself to pay workers better? That's not a rhetorical question. I think many people would be. Living in a good society is important. In fact, many people basically vote for this through expanded government programs. They vote to reduce their income to make things better for workers who make less money than they do.

How can we practically implement what you want in a way that can actually exist? Well, we can increase the minimum wage. Yes, increasing the minimum wage can create some unemployment, but there's a decent amount of economic research showing the impact is smaller than we used to believe and we're also in a period of record employment. Things like this can also cause some inflationary pressure in certain sectors, but it doesn't have to be across the board since, for example, there aren't a lot of software engineers making minimum wage.

Of course, some of this goes back to power. In the Walmart example, I said we'd assume that the knowledge workers couldn't quit for a new job basically to protest the redistribution of wages from them to lower paid workers. Well, one of the issues we have is that many knowledge workers have the power to get higher wages. A problem to overcome is that many knowledge workers would likely argue that if things at Walmart are getting more expensive to pay the higher minimum wage (aka, some inflation is happening), then they should get paid more. At that point, the inflation can be more general. If everyone earns 10% more, then no one has actually earned 10% more. If only some people get the 10% raise, then they actually have a larger share of the pie.

But the problem is that there isn't an easy solution like "if only companies would give up 2% of their profits to their workers we'd be in a workers' paradise!" Yea, we'd all be willing to accept a 0.25% less annual return IF workers had meaningfully better existences. However, your proposal is more like giving Walmart workers a $150 bonus. That isn't nothing, but I don't think you'd say that's a meaningfully better existence with a more dignified life. The problem is that your 0.25% less return just doesn't mean much in a lot of cases.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#350
post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's political suicide for Republicans. Left leaning Democrats like Bernie are all for it.

The Republican Party has been becoming more of a populist party. I wouldn’t be surprised if they start backing such policies or universal income as we deal with several societal and economic changes.

I would be surprised!
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