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Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

jonathanhaidt.substack.com

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Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#341

Post by defrost »

em-bee wrote: post #340
jstarfish wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I also wonder if "playing" in Minecraft, or Roblox supports this definition of play. Or even RPGs like DnD. It's interactive, and allows children to experiment. It's not a physical world, but I don't know if these parameters were explored. I don't think so, but that's my opinion. These virtual worlds have entirely different sets of rules that do not reflect those of reality or social norms. Kids do go through the s…

Kids do go through the same motions of testing boundaries, but they're testing boundaries that would get you punched in the face or jailed IRL-- but they get away with it without consequence because it's all virtual. There's no consequence to scamming other kids in Roblox or destroying people's artwork in Minecraft i'd like to disagree. first of all these actions don't have serious consequences because it's a game. d…

In normal non digital real world playgrounds destroying other children's work and/or cheating them out of money is often a cause of fights starting and not infrequently leads to physical altercations and punches being thrown.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#342

Post by kbos87 »

There’s (rightly) a lot of focus on the impact of social media on teen mental health, and very little about how controlled, structured, and parent-dependent the average young persons’ life is today. Social media clearly plays a role, but you have to wonder if it’s a convenient scapegoat for parents who don’t want to face the impact their own anxieties and control are having over their kids lives.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#343

Post by em-bee »

defrost wrote: post #341
em-bee wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kids do go through the same motions of testing boundaries, but they're testing boundaries that would get you punched in the face or jailed IRL-- but they get away with it without consequence because it's all virtual. There's no consequence to scamming other kids in Roblox or destroying people's artwork in Minecraft i'd like to disagree. first of all these actions don't have serious consequences because it's a game. d…

In normal non digital real world playgrounds destroying other children's work and/or cheating them out of money is often a cause of fights starting and not infrequently leads to physical altercations and punches being thrown.

ok, you are right, but it should not happen. i don't allow my kids to react that way. it is not a natural consequence, and not one they should learn to accept.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#344

Post by kryogen1c »

Waterluvian wrote: post #48
lolinder wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wholeheartedly agree based on my own kids, but want to add a caution lest someone misunderstand: this testing, learning, and growing is of a kind that can only be done without adult supervision. It's not something that you can give them with a private lesson. It's not something that can be taught in a classroom. It's not something that can happen at all without adults letting the kids figure it out on their own by…

The way I explain this is, "my job is not to protect my kids from harm, it's to protect them from irreparable harm." I've had this instinct whenever my kids are on the jungle gym to say, "slow down!" "That's too high!" etc. but I usually catch myself and think, "if they fall is it a cry or a hospital visit?"

> The way I explain this is, "my job is not to protect my kids from harm, it's to protect them from irreparable harm."

Another way to phrase this:

Your job as a parent is to expose your children to the maximum amount of love that is healthy and the maximum amount of pain that is healthy.

Too little or too much of either is possible and damaging.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#345

Post by bmitc »

evandale wrote: post #179
bmitc wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a curious thing to only be able to teach the dangers of something by having children try out and experience the reprecussions of dangers. I think an important skill in life is to actually predict and understand danger ahead of time. As in, a knife won't just give you a bruise, it could be easily fatal if used in even the most mildly wrong way. Falling/jumping from great heights isn't something to just experiment…

Some of these dangers are relative though. A 6 foot fall for a toddler is probably not going to kill them but relative to the size of the kid it's a great height they can experiment with. A 10 foot drop for an 8 year old is a great height to them but they'll survive. The bison example, I would think any child would be very wary of walking up to a bison. On top of that, if a child were to approach a bison I highly dou…

Not that the particular example even matters, but bison have absolutely attacked both children and adults and have killed a handful of people. I won't post the videos, but you can find the bison attacking even children on YouTube. In one instance, the child seemed fine, but the horn moving an inch to the left or right could have gored the kid.

The point is that you are at their mercy and that it takes training and education to understand and predict that danger ahead of time. Even adults are ignorant along these lines. Everything is a spectrum, but there is a threshold, in my opinion, in which the probabilities of disaster become 100% out of your control for certain activities.

For example, you can watch this guy on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV1fzwfJpmQ who appears to be calm and an "expert" on interacting with bears. However, you can also watch this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqwYUkJYRQc in which a grizzly shows absolutely insane stamina and strength, covering huge distances of rough terrain and water. It means that the guy in the previous video is 100% at complete mercy of the bear, no matter what he says. (As an aside, I'm actually surprised that guy hasn't had more trouble, as he clearly seeks out bear encounters.)

I think my larger point is that part of the education of both children and adults is teaching to understand and ultimately respect the reality in which we live in. Animals, physics, biology, etc. all exist and we must live within those rules and understand the consequences of pushing them. I can't go jump into the sun just to try it out. And a project manager stating a schedule as if it dictates reality doesn't mean it does. Lol. This scene from The Counselor is getting at these lines of thought: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIn7y4ejIFM.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#346

Post by mwint »

Waterluvian wrote: post #194
chmod775 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's another thing when it's the Nintendo 3DS (both examples from this week) On the other hand, if you don't buy them a new 3DS right away, there's a valuable lesson here somewhere.

When we interrupted it we did have that discussion. “You play it so much and if it breaks there isn’t another one.” It seemed to register. But I think one of these days some sacrificial tech will really teach them this. And I wonder if that will make all the difference for respecting cell phones. I mentor a highschool robotics team and 90% of the kids phones have cracked screens.

Ya know… how crazy would it be to set up a charity-ish thing for buying kids replacement screens for phones?

Just the part and tools, mind you. Not labor. They do the labor themselves. It’s really not that hard. (Even in the so-called unrepairable phones! I did an iPhone 12 battery last year. iFixit has those guides down to a science).

Might work miracles at showing teens they can fix problems (even those that even their parents are scared of!), that repairing stuff isn’t that scary, and that $40ish can go quite a long way.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#347

Post by alexdunmow »

anon291 wrote: post #287

We've normalized institutionalizing children in institutions that will never let them take any risks due to insurance concerns. So many colleagues and friends put their children in day care a few weeks after birth and then straight to school. These institutions are naturally conservative and don't let children engage in the kind of rough and tumble play that they need. Moreover, in order to appeal to parents, they fo…

The low-key judgement you get from people and especially other parents for not putting your children into day orphanage as soon as they're born is absolutely bizarre! People act like like your kids are going to grow up antisocial psychopaths because they're not surrounded by 15 other sad abandoned kids every day.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#348

Post by defrost »

em-bee wrote: post #343
defrost wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In normal non digital real world playgrounds destroying other children's work and/or cheating them out of money is often a cause of fights starting and not infrequently leads to physical altercations and punches being thrown.

ok, you are right, but it should not happen. i don't allow my kids to react that way. it is not a natural consequence, and not one they should learn to accept.

> it is not a natural consequence

Cats, dogs, animals in the wild not not agree, try taking their food away and see what their natural reaction is to theft and|or interference.

> and not one they should learn to accept.

I agree that they should not learn to accept being punched for knocking down other peoples lego houses, I agree they should not learn to accept being punched for cheating others out of their lunch money.

I woud suggest encouraging them to respect other peoples work and to not cheat others out of their money.

I'm guessing your comment was poorly phrased and that we're in agreement here on the need to play nice and to first address poor behaviour with non violence.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#349

Post by whythre »

Two4 wrote: post #316
dror wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Lead by example. Be responsible about your own use and be honest about it. - Help them engage in constructive risk taking behavior. Sports are a common example, and there's plenty of research showing that they reduce harmful behavior. Teens, specifically males explore risky behavior. They have these new magnificent bodies and they want to test their limits. - Be present, available and engaged with them. Some of the…

While your comment addresses the most common factors contributing to addiction, it doesn't really answer the question of how to let children experience the consequences of addiction in a way that's low stakes and not irreversible.

I am not sure it’s possible. Part of what defines addiction is that overpowers the will, which isn’t safe. It also is typically a long term decent, a series of poor decisions in the grip of a disease. Not easy to model.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#350

Post by raincole »

Waterluvian wrote: post #9

This may be obvious or well-discussed but I had an epiphany some years back when my dad, regarding my kids, said (paraphrasing), "they're not playing. 'Play' is a misleading term. They're testing the world. They're learning how things work. How gravity works. How friction holds lego together. How actions cause reactions. How friends and strangers behave when you do things. How to use language with make believe. How t…

Isn't "play" biologically testing the world? Like cats do?
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