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The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

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Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#341

Post by sushisource »

lazyasciiart wrote: post #243
8note wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What it takes is tearing down large swaths of current car infrastructure and the buildings surrounding it. Eg. Seattle tearing down the viaduct a few years back Which is what it took to turn American cities into car based to begin with.

That's not a great example, because Seattle spent kajillions of dollars on a ridiculous tunnel under the city to replace the viaduct AND THEN built a second ground-level highway on the newly available delightful waterfront space. Seattle's way of getting rid of the viaduct is a colossal waste of money and years of work for a terrible shitty result that is 1000% car based. A giant failure.

I don't think it's a _complete_ waste. It's better than it was before, but, it's absolutely true it could've been done much, much better than what we got.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#342

Post by Macha »

LeoPanthera wrote: post #185
UtopiaPunk wrote: post #30

There's an interesting interview with a designer of SimCity, where he discusses parking: Geoff Manaugh: While you were making those measurements of different real-world cities, did you discover any surprising patterns or spatial relationships Librande: Yes, definitely. I think the biggest one was the parking lots. When I started measuring out our local grocery store, which I don’t think of as being that big, I was bl…

Is it wrong that I think I would enjoy playing Sim Parking Lot?

Cities Skylines has mods which can simulate parking in more detail.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#343

Post by sushisource »

gruez wrote: post #242
kibwen wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sold my car years ago and moved to Boston. I'll never go back to live anywhere that requires me to own a car. I bike or walk everywhere, and what makes me hopeful is that biking infrastructure in Boston (and neighboring cities like Cambridge) has improved dramatically in the years since I've been here and just keeps getting better. Google tells me that the average TCO of car ownership in the US was $10,728 in 2022. B…

>Google tells me that the average TCO of car ownership in the US was $10,728 in 2022. Between my partner and I, we're saving $20,000 per year not owning a car (and that's assuming a generous expenditure on bicycle TCO). High rents mean nothing when considering how much you save on not needing to own a car. $10k seems suspiciously high. Maybe that's because everyone is buying overpriced pickups/SUVs? If all you want i…

Yeah, I also find that weird. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'd love to not have a car and I'm all for public transit/biking/walking, but I bought my car (which I love) - a brand new Focus ST for 28k in 2013. I spend maybe $3k a year on gas and maintenance, insurance etc, (I don't drive much) bringing TCO to ~6k range. If you have to drive a huge amount obviously that's not realistic but for a city like Seattle where you kinda need a car, but only for certain things, it's absolutely possible.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#344

Post by nerdbert »

spencerchubb wrote: post #201
cscurmudgeon wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not go all the way to the source of the problem to make it realistic? E.g., NIMBYism https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/09/opinion/democrats-blue-st...

And the root cause of NIMBYism is the public goods dilemma. Everyone would benefit if more housing were built, but nobody wants more built near their land. The solution is not as simple as "Just stop electing NIMBYs!" because NIMBYism is a Nash equilibrium.

I definitely want more housing near my land. It means more restaurants and shops that I can easily walk to, more likelihood that my friends will live in easy walking distance, etc.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#345

Post by arthurbrown »

criddell wrote: post #316
geraldwhen wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know multiple people who bought houses 45 minutes from work that made way, way more money than needed for those houses. They WANTED to be in the middle of nowhere. They could have had a house 11 minutes away with good schools and access to nature, but they choose 45 to be isolated. They live in their cars.

I wish I was further out of the city. I think if actual self-driving cars arrive, they will fuel sprawl like nothing else before. I wouldn't mind a long commute if I could sleep or work or chill out as my car drove me to work.

You're describing a train

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#346

Post by xyzelement »

whateverman23 wrote: post #333
xyzelement wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your number seems very you-specific. Back-of-the-envelope math, seems like you drive I totally believe that it is possible that these are indeed your costs but I'll give you a counter-example. My Highlander was about $50K all in. Let's say I keep it for 10 years, that's $5 per year right there. Insurance is about $1.5K so we're at $6.5K and that's a good deal for around here. If we drive into Manhattan on a weekday,…

Half of your cost is your $50k car choice, though, and doesn't include resale value of around $15k (I'm looking at 2013 highlander prices. It's probably more because you chose a bunch of upgrades, see below). Drops your yearly costs by $1.5k right there. Get a reasonable car for $25k-35k and your costs drop significantly. Hell, your $50k number means you chose to have a bunch of upgrades. The base MSRP is $36k, and I…

Thank you. I am extremely happy with my purchase and it's well worth the cost.

My point to the GP was that it's trivially doable to get to 10k a year ballpark car cost without doing anything too crazy.

If you are curious, it's a hybrid XLE with AWD. I wanted the hybrid, AWD is standard here in the north east and XLE is the lowest model that comes with (fake) leather seats which we wanted due to having small kids.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#347

Post by nerdbert »

paganel wrote: post #261
damnesian wrote: post #23

>You could imagine a world in which streets were pedestrianized and where we planted trees and gardens and in what is currently space reserved for parking, and closed streets, outside schools, so kids can have places to play. I would love to see a LOT more of this in urban centers. I live in a college town that is about the same size as Iowa City. Iowa City has taken the step of closing off their downtown and making…

[flagged]

This idea that cars - which are a vastly more expensive and often slower way to get around cities - are by fundamental nature of the working class while bicycles belong to the elite, borders on the absurd.

It's only this way because North American urban design forces lower-income people into least-common denominator poorly planned areas where cars are the only practical way to navigate. It doesn't have to be like that.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#348

Post by Karrot_Kream »

doctorpangloss wrote: post #303
Sharlin wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very North American biased view. In fact, many studies have shown that in reasonably structured cities, pedestrians and public transit users are a more important source of income to downtown commercial services than motorists. Their individual transactions tend to be smaller, but there are more of them. But it's also vital that the city center and its neighboring areas are actually places where people live,…

> But yes, many business owners (and the sorts of politicians they tend to vote) are irrationally attached to the idea that motorists are the ones who bring in the money If they're so irrational, go and start a business with no parking! I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm saying that you're not appreciating the forces that make people put up with commutes and parking in the first place. > pedestrians and public tran…

Strongtowns has an article on this [1] that cites papers which show that increases in walkability lead to higher home values and attracts more businesses. If you have studies that demonstrate an effect and a model which corroborates the effects, opposition is necessarily irrational. The fact is that in NA people are very attached to their cars and parking and that people in NA are much more "fitness inequal" (people who are unfit in NA are much more unfit than unfit people in other developed countries) [2] so it's much more likely for folks in NA to oppose anything that takes away parking.

[1]: https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2018/1/16/why-walkable-s...

[2]: https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/trackin...

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#349

Post by nerdbert »

wiredfool wrote: post #80
ericmay wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea but the cars are smaller and transit isn't designed exclusively around moving cars from one place to another. I can't even bike in my city because I'll get ran over. Comparing the numbers directly doesn't make a lot of sense.

I've seen more Large US Car/Pickups (think old full size van/suburban/pickup) in the Netherlands than anywhere else in Europe (with the exception of right outside of a US military facility).

How much time have you spent here? That doesn't jibe with what I see at all. There are so many more giant truckish cars in France, Germany, and the UK than I see here in the Netherlands. I'm looking out my front window now and I see about 20 cars of which one is in the SUV form factor.

Re: The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

#350

Post by nerdbert »

abdullahkhalids wrote: post #209
TeeWEE wrote: post #5

Come to the Netherlands. Sell your car. Buy a bike. A car is not really a status symbol here. Its more like a liability.

Here are the stats https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_... Netherlands has 38th highest cars/capita. Austria, Scotland, Sweden, Denmark, Ireland, Hungary all have lower car ownership numbers. Though not that much lower. Why is this?

Admittedly I live in a large, dense Dutch city, but the small number of people I know in the city who have cars only use them for DIY shopping and occasional weekend trips, not for everyday driving.

People have enough disposable income to be able to afford one of their own, and avoid whatever real or perceived annoyances they associate with renting, but are not getting in them every morning.

People I know in the suburbs and rural areas are much more likely to drive, but if they commute to a large city and have a train station in biking distance of their house then that's still how they do their daily.

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