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Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

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Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#341

Post by tw04 »

I view this as very RIM/Blackberry like, only Tesla has learned from history. Eventually the competitor charging networks were going to be "good enough" - Tesla had the option of working with Ford or GM, or letting them dump their combined resources into a competitor (and every other MFG). Sure in the short-term this will make them more vulnerable to competition, but if your only moat was the charging network you were doomed to fail anyway.

Had RIM opened up BES/BBM to the iphone early on, they might still be around today.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#342

Post by WaitWaitWha »

abc_lisper wrote: post #330
hinkley wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My friend who is not an EV driver got stuck with an EV rental (Bolt) for a semi-rural trip and boy was that a ton of drama. I’ve been thinking hard about an EV myself and now I’m looking at PHEVs instead. I’ve gotten a crash course in EV charging around here and it’s not good. Level 2 chargers are not for spontaneous trips and level 1 chargers are fucking pointless. It estimated two and a half days to charge from 40-…

If your commute is less than 100 miles, you have nothing to worry, if you get a proper charger at home. Owned Tesla for 3.5 years with 60 mile commute, it has been very nice.

If this is true, what is EV replacing?

If my commute is less than 100 miles should I not be using train, light rail, trolley, bus, or similar public transport?

The historical use for me and my family and those who has a car, for generation was "road trips", anything over 100 miles.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#343

Post by _ea1k »

echelon wrote: post #241
erikstarck wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, the mission of Tesla is to transition the world to sustainable energy. If you believe them, that should be enough. But, second of all, this also makes business sense. Everyone will have to use the Tesla app, where they can get targeted offers and become a kind of "Tesla Light" customers. People wonder why Tesla doesn't advertise. Well, with these deals, the need for advertising is a lot less than withou…

Not so sure I believe this strategy. An app isn't going to make me buy a car or Tesla equipment. Aesthetics, utility, and cost are my main purchasing decision dimensions, and Tesla isn't winning those for me. I'm not buying something shaped like a prune that can't haul gear and equipment. The ads on Uber and other delivery apps are irrelevant to my daily life. Uber claims advertising has generating $500M in ARR, but…

> FWIW, I'm dreading having to buy an EV. Gasoline works better for my use cases. I don't have a place to charge at home, and I don't want to wait for on-demand fill ups.

Yeah, if you don't have home or workplace charging, EVs really don't have significant advantages at the moment.

They tend to be pretty aggravating, tbh.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#344

Post by seanmcdirmid »

logifail wrote: post #310
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most EVs charge at home most of the time, so there isn't that much money in the "fuel" industry, they are mostly needed for long distance trips (and so crowd up on holiday weekends), not daily driving.

> Most EVs charge at home most of the time Umm, there's a significant chunk of the world's population who will likely never be able to charge at home, because they live in apartments and park on-street. "EV owners who live in apartment buildings and park on the street will rely heavily on public chargers—in 2021, 42 percent of European EV owners living in cities had no access to home charging points." https://www.mck…

On street parking is very much allowed only in some countries, the biggest one being the USA, but much of western Europe it is disallowed (or at least, you pay for it by the hour). Many countries require proof of parking spot before they will let you even buy a car.

Even in that case, it isn't hard for cities to put out L2 charging pylons at each on-street parking space. They can just combine it with street light infrastructure or whatever (they would also be able to monetize street parking at that point, which is inevitable anyways).

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#345

Post by vel0city »

adrianmonk wrote: post #322
vel0city wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe Tesla wants to qualify automakers' designs so cars don't cause problems with their charging network, or vice versa. I shouldn't need Exxon and Shell and Phillips and Wawa and Sheetz and whoever to qualify my car to get gas. I shouldn't need Tesla and EA and whoever to qualify my car to get electricity. I don't see how anyone can see that and think its a good thing.

I don't like that a single private company is in charge of this standard, but I think this sort of thing is pretty common and necessary when two companies integrate technologies. For example, look at how USB C compatibility worked at first. There was a standard, but there were still lots of problems. In practice, implementers may not correctly understand certain parts of the standard, may not grasp the importance of…

Yeah but Google doesn't need to certify Anker or whoever to make a charger and there's no on-going agreement to make this charging brick work with my phone. Anker can't just later decide to not work with Samsung devices and suddenly not work. They all just speak USB-PD and it works.

Tesla chargers shouldn't care if the car is a Tesla or Rivian or GM or VW or whatever, if it plugs in and it speaks CCS it should charge.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#346

Post by saalweachter »

dmoy wrote: post #139
saalweachter wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a little confused by fast charging standards, to be honest. 1MW is 20x the maximum draw of a standard house, and 800x the average draw of a US house. The hydro plant down the road generates 5MW. It just sounds crazy to plan to pull that much power charging a car at a time.

> It just sounds crazy to plan to pull that much power charging a car at a time. For comparison, a normal gas station pump is like about 4MW of power (fuel).

It's a useful comparison for how long it takes to refuel a vehicle, but "moving a liquid storing chemical potential energy through a tube" and "move electricity through a wire [and re-store it as electro-chemical potential energy]" are two such radically different activities that it glosses over a lot to equate the two.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#347

Post by Wheen »

logifail wrote: post #310
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most EVs charge at home most of the time, so there isn't that much money in the "fuel" industry, they are mostly needed for long distance trips (and so crowd up on holiday weekends), not daily driving.

> Most EVs charge at home most of the time Umm, there's a significant chunk of the world's population who will likely never be able to charge at home, because they live in apartments and park on-street. "EV owners who live in apartment buildings and park on the street will rely heavily on public chargers—in 2021, 42 percent of European EV owners living in cities had no access to home charging points." https://www.mck…

> will rely heavily on public chargers

Public chargers =/= DC fast chargers (like Tesla superchargers).

I've already seen level 2 chargers that drop down from light posts in my city. Roll those out to every light post near apartment buildings and throw in some curb-side stalls if you need more capacity. Most people won't need to charge every night with 200/300mi+ range, so you won't need a 1:1 mapping of chargers to cars. This way, people charge passively overnight at stations that are cheaper to build than DC fast chargers.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#348

Post by solarkraft »

mkozlows wrote: post #265
dagmx wrote: post #112

I’m glad there finally seems to be a push to a better standard in North America. I’m really curious how this affects Teslas market share though going forward. Their supercharger network is why we continue with them despite countless other issues. It’s their biggest moat as far as I’m concerned. Now I have significantly more options, and my next car will not be a Tesla. I’m sure I’m not alone in that. Is the brand nam…

The thing about how this is affects Tesla is "compared to what?" Compared to the historic status quo where there were no other chargers, and Tesla had exclusive access to a large-ish proprietary charging network, it looks like Tesla giving up their advantage, and seems bad. But the forward-looking status quo was going to be a gigantic network of CCS chargers that makes Tesla's proprietary network look small, with eve…

> In that world, Tesla would have had to switch their cars over to CCS eventually and retrofit their existing chargers to CCS, and people who bought Teslas with the proprietary plug have a terrible UX of needing adapters everywhere.

They've switched to CCS in Europe and as far as I can tell it's going just fine for them. Not sure what would motivate them to pull this risky move besides an insane love for their customers' UX (which ... I doubt).

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#349

Post by RajT88 »

hinkley wrote: post #309
agloe_dreams wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also one other detail: There's a hell of a lot more money in the car 'fuel' industry than the car making business. R&D costs are way lower, you don't need that many employees, and you can always charge these third party automakers more. Tesla is going to make bank off these adopters.

The latest rounds of gas convenience stores have gotten more square footage than earlier generations. I suspect they are anticipating indoor seating for charging customers at some point. I’ve also started seeing joint ventures where it’s a proper coffee stand or in one case I can think of an A&W root beer. Gas stations tend to be physically separated from pastimes (what Burger King owner wants diesel fumes in their s…

I've been seeing some of these as well in recent years.

The most memorable one was down in Louisville, where there was a gas station/bait shop/bar. The bartender sold me some whole-hog pork sausage at $2/lb. which he kept in a duffel bag in the ice box. Totally on the up-and-up.

Another is a well-known BBQ joint / convenience store out by Kansas City (I forget the name).

Most common, I think, is having a Subway inside the convenience store. I've seen Burger Kings as well.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#350

Post by 015a »

erikstarck wrote: post #195
dagmx wrote: post #112

I’m glad there finally seems to be a push to a better standard in North America. I’m really curious how this affects Teslas market share though going forward. Their supercharger network is why we continue with them despite countless other issues. It’s their biggest moat as far as I’m concerned. Now I have significantly more options, and my next car will not be a Tesla. I’m sure I’m not alone in that. Is the brand nam…

First of all, the mission of Tesla is to transition the world to sustainable energy. If you believe them, that should be enough. But, second of all, this also makes business sense. Everyone will have to use the Tesla app, where they can get targeted offers and become a kind of "Tesla Light" customers. People wonder why Tesla doesn't advertise. Well, with these deals, the need for advertising is a lot less than withou…

Also worth noting: I don't hear people talking about this. Tesla allows non-Teslas to access a very small portion of the supercharger network already. They offer a two-tiered plan; pay-as-you-go, or a $13/mo subscription which activates the lower charging rates Teslas already get. I don't know if its been announced yet how this applies to the deal Tesla has signed with Ford (and GM/Rivian?); will it look more like how EA/evGo operate, where there's a plan you sign up for to get the more market-rate charging prices? Or are they doing away with that?
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