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The Never Married, a New Normal

psychologytoday.com

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Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#341
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My parents' generation could raise two kids on one full time job. No way I'd try raising even one on a single income any more. So my wife and I can have a much nicer quality of life with zero kids.

This is a very understandable disposition. Not going to criticize. This trait also naturally removes itself from the gene pool.

If it did, you'd think it'd be gone by now, much less have articles like https://fortune.com/2022/10/18/millennials-happy-not-having-... written about it.

I think it's a lot more complicated than a simple genetic trait: people weigh the cost and benefits using a lot of no-single-gene high-level reasoning and (in this environment, the massive inequality in haves and have-nots, the relative lack of material support for raising a child from the larger community, the overall ease relative to decades past of access to the tools of controlling pregnancy, and the removal of most of the patriarchal obstacles to women in particular remaining marriage-free) decide that it's not worth the cost. It's not like there's a risk of failure to propagate the species; if anything, the risks seem most associated with increasing the headcount, not decreasing it.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My parents' generation could raise two kids on one full time job. No way I'd try raising even one on a single income any more. So my wife and I can have a much nicer quality of life with zero kids.

When was it not true that you could live larger without needing to support children? Eventually I didn’t feel like being able to afford more baubles was my most important value anymore.

> When was it not true that you could live larger without needing to support children?

When most of society was agrarian and labor-oriented, more people meant more hands to do the heavy hand-work of maintaining the city.

Modern automation and standardization has largely removed those benefits; a single person can operate a tractor that maintains acres of crops on an almost semi-autonomous basis, with the driver there mostly to handle breakdowns and deal with the unexpected. Having a family of eight kids means you've got one tractor driver and then what?

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#343
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> society as completely absolved women of all responsibilities as a wife Please elaborate.

sorry, I forgot that men aren't supposed to expect or want anything as part of a marriage. my mistake

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#344
post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Marriage is a complex and binding contract that for two high earners is a tax disadvantage. You can file separately.

You cannot file as single while married.

You can file as 'Married, filing separately', at least in the US. We considered it last year, but jointly ended up saving us a bit of money in our situation (I was surprised, I assumed based on something in our circumstance I don't remember offhand that it would be the other way around).

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet people with kids get divorced all the time anyway. This ruins the child

A child of a single parent here (a bastard if you will). No it does not.

This is a nice anecdote, but it doesn’t mean anything.

In the US at least, being raise by a single parent is a massive statistical indicator for basically every negative social outcome. Poverty, criminality, future generational single parenthood, etc.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#346
post #192

I know this is a touchy subject but I hate the fact that I am married. If it works out you’re golden but if it doesn’t then it’s going to be a constant source of depression for the rest of your life.

Sorry for your situation, but since you shared I feel it's okay to ask. Why is divorce not an option for you?

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No need to risk half of my current assets and future income Most people see being in a position of vulnerability with respect to another human being whom they trust as a wonderful thing, which gives them a great deal of every day happiness. You see this vulnerability as merely negative, a threat to your individualistic pursuit of wealth ("assets and income"). You have a right to live however you want, of course, bu…

>but maybe consider the possibility that others are getting something valuable out of this that you've missed? Of course some people are getting something valuable. Marriage works out great for some people, and of course those people are happy to tell the world how great marriage is because it worked out so well for them. For other people, however, it's a complete disaster. Basically, marriage is a huge gamble. The o…

> If you win, great, but there's a huge potential to lose, big. There's a reason the divorce rate is so high

Divorce isn't the same thing as "losing big". The latter is a relatively rare occurrence, which can happen when the relationship is very one-sided (one spouse makes 10x the income of the other spouse), and one spouse is extremely mean and vindictive. Plenty of couples separate amicably. Plenty of couples separate and it's a long painful affair, but no one gets robbed or cheated in the process. If you really find yourself that worried about your wealth and find yourself that worried about getting cheated in a divorce, sign a pre-nuptial agreement. Most reasonable people will accept one.

My point, moreover, is that the risk itself, the state of vulnerability, is something a lot of people want in a romantic relationship. People like you and the OP of the post I replied to see this risk as pure downside. You think that everyone sees the risk this way, and that they only accept it because they think the potential winnings are worth it. Marriage, as you put it, is a huge gamble. But this is not the way everyone sees marriage. Achieving this level of intimacy with a person, where you inevitably have to trust them like this, is itself the goal. This is the "something valuable" I refer to. It means the downside (potentially getting robbed in divorce court) is offset not just by the upside (a good marriage) but also by the inherent value of the risk-taking behavior that marriage involves.

> 1-2 years isn't really enough time to get to know someone well enough to determine if the relationship will work out

Sure! I can agree with that (with the above note that getting divorced is not really the end of the world). So take 4 or 5 years. Live together for a while. Get a shared bank account when you feel you're ready for that and need to pay some bills together. You may even find that you achieve the kind of intimacy you're looking for without going up to an altar and putting a ring on their finger. I've been with my partner for over a decade, and we're not "married". I'm not old fashioned, and this isn't the 1950s anymore. But I am attached to the rather romantic notion that intimacy is inherently valuable, and that it inherently involves taking a risk.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#348

One of the main legal benefits of marriage is being able to be financially dependent on someone else in a secure way. If one spouse decides to put their career on hold (or never begin one in the first place) while the other one works, they don't have to worry about being penniless and unable to provide for themselves in the case of the relationship ending. This becomes less crucial if both are working, which seems mo…

[deleted]

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#349
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but even without that there are a fair number of people I'm aware of who live (monogomously) in seperate flats/houses to their spouse.

That is something in old European aristocratic families indeed, that's very far from my peasant's life. I'm just wondering what's the point of staying married then?

You can want to be in a relationship with someone and also want your own physical space at the same time. Or maybe your workplace locations necessitate that you live apart. Or maybe health conditions.

There's lots of reasons.

Re: The Never Married, a New Normal

#350
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> living only for myself, doing what I wanted to do when I wanted to do it. This. And ultimately having kids with this person is another ego-exposing (and hopefully ego busting - but that's not guaranteed) exercise that contemporary societies gave up trying with varying excuses ranging "economical" to "climate saving" reasons.

Do you see a lot the argument that having kids is bad for the environment? Can I ask where? I do not disagree, I just rarely hear it, it's something people are afraid to day out loud in my social network, it's socially unacceptable, but it's changing a bit.

Read HN posts on climate change. On almost every one, there will be a subthread on "don't have kids because of environmental impact" (and another one that says not to have kids because they're doomed).
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