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Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

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Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#341

Post by carlosjobim »

sbaiddn wrote: post #255
foverzar wrote: post #229

So, this is mostly a US-centric forum, but I wonder what is the take on this from the perspective of a Finnish person. Is there any controversy or concerns of becoming a foothold for future conflicts? This whole thing has been dragging on for sometime now, had the opinions shifted over time?

Well the PM who nursed this just lost the election. But I suspect most Fins agree with the decision.

Finns always agree with government decisions. If government policy is to stay out of NATO, finns will think that's the sound and rational way. If the government policy is to get into NATO, they will ask the media to support the idea and finns will change their opinion and think it's a splendid idea. Finns think as they are told to, like their neighbours in Russia.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#342

Post by foverzar »

pjc50 wrote: post #249
foverzar wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is Russia. Russia could be a normal country like its neighbors and make money from trading goods > No one is encroaching on Russia's borders. This is really horrifying how the perspectives on the current directly oppose each other, completely Orwellian. It's not like it's some ancient history, all of this is following the lessons learned from interactions in the 2000s - when the US had been violating th…

> Second Chechen War, Georgia What? Neither of those involved NATO at all?

During the second Chechen war Western countries had supported radical islamists (like Isis, Taliban, you know the type). This was taken really badly in Russia as something completely unfair.

Georgia was one of the thirst countries of that were pushed to NATO where things went badly. The US had been slowly supplying Georgia with NATO equipment and this shifted the balance of power and "status quo" and uncorked a local ethnic conflict - president Saakashvili attempted to score patriotism points, hoping that NATO would back him and that Russia would not act on Sochi agreement. NATO obviously didn't back his invasion.

Point is, there is no much trust in western military branch from the perspective of those outside it's protection.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#343

Post by watwut »

andreygrehov wrote: post #256
watwut wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be somewhat willing to believe is Russia got rid of own Neonazi first. Which is not what happening, Russia has quite strong movement. It is also quite racist country, socially-culturally very much like nazi were - having a thing against gays, celebrating violence, all of that.

Same as in Ukraine. I'm Ukrainian and I lived there for 27 years. There are very little Ukrainians who don't have Russian relatives, because they all had sex between each other when USSR was still a thing. Many Ukrainians have one of their parents born in Russia. The culture in both countries is, more or less, the same.

By pretty much all statics and reports I have seen, Ukrainian neo-nazi problem if massively smaller then Russian one. Every single country has some neonazi ... and Russia has a lot of them and in fairly powerful positions.

Ukraine is not celebrating Stalin the way Russia is celebrating Stalin. Ukraine was not forcibly closing organizations studying communists crimes or Stalin crimes, Russia did.

Ukraine did not moved to make gay or trans materials illegal. Meanwhile, arrests and violence against gays in Russia became quite a serious thing in Russia. Practically, being gay is criminalized.

Ukraine did not started wars with countries around it the way Russia repeatedly did.

------------------

I am not saying Ukraine is country of saints, but Russia is waay worst then that.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#344

Post by jnsaff2 »

Convolutional wrote: post #337
jnsaff2 wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's some mental gymnastics. In one sentence you say: muscovy has no interest in Finland and in the next: now Finland is threatened because they are in NATO. Because now muscovy is interested in them? Because something else?

There are no gymnastics - previously Finland and Russia had a diplomatic relationship. Now if Russia has a conflict with one of the Baltic states, Finland is dragged into it. Before a war between Lithuania and Russia would not involve Finland necessarily. Now Finland has pledged a war between Lithuania and Russia would involve Finland. Not many mental gymnastics are needed - to a person who reaches the level of avera…

You conveniently omit the part where russia should not have a conflict with any of the states you mentioned.

You are just doing the genocidal russia crocodile tears: why can't I invade all the countries? Why everyone so mean that they gang up against me to protect each other?

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#345

Post by waihtis »

Convolutional wrote: post #337
jnsaff2 wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's some mental gymnastics. In one sentence you say: muscovy has no interest in Finland and in the next: now Finland is threatened because they are in NATO. Because now muscovy is interested in them? Because something else?

There are no gymnastics - previously Finland and Russia had a diplomatic relationship. Now if Russia has a conflict with one of the Baltic states, Finland is dragged into it. Before a war between Lithuania and Russia would not involve Finland necessarily. Now Finland has pledged a war between Lithuania and Russia would involve Finland. Not many mental gymnastics are needed - to a person who reaches the level of avera…

You cannot have a diplomatic relationship with a warmonger on a quest to restore the pre-1917 Russian empire - which Finland was a part of. Simple risk management. I suggest you tone down your smug tone of voice as clearly you have an incomplete view of the crisis

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#346

Post by morkalork »

Convolutional wrote: post #337
jnsaff2 wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's some mental gymnastics. In one sentence you say: muscovy has no interest in Finland and in the next: now Finland is threatened because they are in NATO. Because now muscovy is interested in them? Because something else?

There are no gymnastics - previously Finland and Russia had a diplomatic relationship. Now if Russia has a conflict with one of the Baltic states, Finland is dragged into it. Before a war between Lithuania and Russia would not involve Finland necessarily. Now Finland has pledged a war between Lithuania and Russia would involve Finland. Not many mental gymnastics are needed - to a person who reaches the level of avera…

And in what circumstances would Lithuania, a country with population of 2.8M, would be at war with Russia?

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#347

Post by carlosjobim »

boeingUH60 wrote: post #247

Score a win for the US, NATO, and the west. Putin is a weak fraud who has been exposed…can’t wait for his regime to collapse, all without the west lifting a finger. When you meet a mad paranoid dog like Putin, the best thing is to bait them and let them eat themselves just like Putin has done.

I might be talking to deaf ears here, but have you considered reading something written by Putin, Biden, Trump or Obama? Or the rulers of other large nations? They are all highly intelligent people even if they are responsible for horrible things. Thinking that Putin is a "mad paranoid dog", speaks to me that you have become the victim of propagandized media made for very simple minded people, and I doubt anybody frequenting this forum belong to that class. You won't be rewarded by your government or anybody else for blindly hating the enemy, so why not try to understand deeper what is happening in the world?

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#349

Post by anonymousab »

vladTheInhaler wrote: post #298
anonymousab wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turning it into a barren wasteland makes it easier to take or hold with disposable conscripts.

I'm not sure that's true. Operating in a radioactive environment makes every single task so much harder. When Russia can barely afford the time to teach its recruits how to shoot, how could they possibly spare the time to teach them how to manage radioactive contamination?

In this case "nobody can have it" is effectively the same as "we have it" in terms of keeping NATO at a further distance from the important parts of the federation. Or whatever the Kremlin justification is these days.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#350

Post by Stagnant »

foverzar wrote: post #229

So, this is mostly a US-centric forum, but I wonder what is the take on this from the perspective of a Finnish person. Is there any controversy or concerns of becoming a foothold for future conflicts? This whole thing has been dragging on for sometime now, had the opinions shifted over time?

The decision to join NATO has had overwhelming support among the general population throughout the process. Over 80% of the population were in favor of joining when we applied for membership last year and the opinions have stayed around the same. According to a poll conducted in early february this year, 82% were in favor, 10% undecided and 8% against. Parliament votes were 184-7 last month when they approved the membership.

Joining NATO is widely regarded as the safe and rational choice. Russia already saw Finland as part of "the west" and Russia's attack on Ukraine meant that our international relations with them were pretty much destroyed. Staying out of NATO made no sense from that point onward. Why try to stay "neutral" with no formal defense pact, when Russia viewed us as hostile anyway?

So yeah, I would say that the vast majority of Finns feel safer now, and becoming a NATO member has been seen as a positive thing overall.

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