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Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

economist.com

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Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#341

Post by throwaway894345 »

nirimda wrote: post #266
throwaway894345 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that a distortion? It seems like you’re violently agreeing with the parent that many people bike to work but far, far fewer than the majority (which is essentially what the American anti-car rhetoric suggests). > Imagine if even half of these people took to cars instead, it would be gridlock. There are 10 million employed Dutch (Statista) of whom 65% drive (Statista), so an additional half a million would be a…

I think the problem is that American anti-car rhetoric doesn't speak with one voice. There are people who know what they're talking about, who are mostly saying "If we follow some of the Dutch practices, we can get a city where people can get to a local destination by bike safely. But we should also take note that even in the Netherlands, the need to engineer roads for bike safety is something they continually forget…

I agree that it’s hard to represent groups accurately, but I don’t think your “person who knows what they’re talking about” falls reasonably within bounds of anyone’s “anti-car” definition. For one, it’s not actually an anti-car argument, it’s a pro-cycling argument and lots of Americans favor safer cycling without getting anywhere near anti-car. Moreover, every identifiably anti-car community I’m aware of (e.g., r/fuckcars) has a tone that is more akin to your “Americans are evil” example—are there identifiably anti-car communities that embody your former example?

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#342

Post by readingnews »

overthemoon wrote: post #174

I'm an aging millennial, but on a purely personal level, when I lived in a city with good public transit, I was a lot happier, most of the time. I really like stepping off the train and the bus and being on my own two feet, the walking exercise, not being chained to this thing I have to worry about. I hate driving, I hate parking, I hate owning a car--the maintenance, the ongoing cost of fuel and insurance, all of it…

Hrm, I guess I _am_ getting older. Now that I think about it, I have owned a car for about 35 years. When I got the first one, used, it was $500. Insurance was high, but not insane like today (my children do not drive, as I can not afford the insurance). I recall that back then (we had BBSs, FIDOnet and USENET groups) it was still an item that gave you freedom. You needed it to visit people or go to the cafe which was far away.

I think as time progresses, I have truly learned to dislike my car(s). Insurance where I am is out of control (one of the highest in the nation), a new car is so far out of reach it is not funny, and used ones cost far more than the last new car I purchased. I think as others have noted, there may be a number of factors leading to people not wanting them... A few young people I know do not have cars, when asked the reasons are typically money (biggest one) and pure need / desire. I think when we were young it was as symbol of freedom. I think now it is (rightfully so) either a status symbol to some, or a ball and chain that costs money just sitting in your driveway (maintenance, depreciation, insurance).

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#343

Post by usrusr »

overthemoon wrote: post #174

I'm an aging millennial, but on a purely personal level, when I lived in a city with good public transit, I was a lot happier, most of the time. I really like stepping off the train and the bus and being on my own two feet, the walking exercise, not being chained to this thing I have to worry about. I hate driving, I hate parking, I hate owning a car--the maintenance, the ongoing cost of fuel and insurance, all of it…

It really is a "the grass is bleaker on the other side" situation. As a public transport person I feel weirdly constrained by the idea that a day's itinerary will inevitably have to see me return to wherever the car is parked, impossible to do spontaneous things like walk a few stops, ride with an acquaintance or something like that that would eventually take me home, but not return to some previous stage. With a car, everything that happens outside the car is inevitably out-and-back. A car person will never miss that little freedom because they don't know it and objectively it's truly not that big an issue. But if you are not used to the pattern of always returning to wherever you parked it can feel surprisingly limiting. Similar things apply in the reverse, to a public transport person it's just natural to mentally map out a city's topology in units of line changes required, but a car person will feel outrageously constrained.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#344

Post by hunter2_ »

yesenadam wrote: post #281
kevinali1 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I totally agree with this, I think you should still get a drivers license. There's always a very real possibility that you may need to drive a car in some sort of emergency.

> I think you should still get a drivers license Or learn to drive, at least. I don't think lack of a licence would stop you driving in a real emergency.

This might depend on location. For me, maintaining a license works out to a few USD/yr so you might as well do it if only for emergencies, to avoid a citation in an emergency (though I'll admit it's far-fetched for that to occur). In a place where licensing is expensive, I'd agree with your take.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#346

Post by taylodl »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #303
taylodl wrote: post #287

The young are falling out of love with cars because they're unaffordable. It's as simple as that. It's yet another sign the standard of living is declining for the young. The average new car price in the U.S. is now over $47K (Consumer Reports). I make a good living and I'm not going to pay that kind of money for a new car! A young person would be stupid to pay that kind of money for a car. Okay, so what about used c…

There are plenty of very high quality vehicles available for purchase at less than $47k for new and $28k for used. The average sale price is skewed by people choosing luxury purchases by buying larger (and fancier) than necessary vehicles. Also can be skewed by vehicles lasting longer in the first place, meaning poorer people do not need to buy cars as often, but richer people can choose to buy cars more often.

That helps a little, but still makes care ownership prohibitively expensive for young people. You're still looking at $350 per month for a 5 year old or newer vehicle, i.e. one that's reliable and has lower maintenance (and aggravation) costs.

That still leaves you paying a little over $600 per month. From that point as you start lowering your finance costs you're going to increase your maintenance and aggravation costs.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#347

Post by throwaway894345 »

ikesau wrote: post #293
throwaway894345 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that a distortion? It seems like you’re violently agreeing with the parent that many people bike to work but far, far fewer than the majority (which is essentially what the American anti-car rhetoric suggests). > Imagine if even half of these people took to cars instead, it would be gridlock. There are 10 million employed Dutch (Statista) of whom 65% drive (Statista), so an additional half a million would be a…

Do you mean Statistica or Statista?

Statista. I’m on mobile and autocorrect is getting me. I edited my post, thanks for the correction.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#348

Post by tobyhinloopen »

wffurr wrote: post #10

There's 138 trains per day between Amsterdam and The Hague. It's faster to take the train than to drive on that trip. Driving in either city in an exercise in frustration. Why would anyone in a rich country with a high functioning rail system like The Netherlands want to drive? I don't know how many rich countries that describes, but I lived happily for years in Boston in the USA without a car. I have one now but onl…

> Why would anyone in a rich country with a high functioning rail system like The Netherlands want to drive?

Because some people don’t live in Amsterdam or The Hague.

Taking public transportation will take me over twice the time, and that’s when there’s no outage or delay.

“But traffic jams!” I hear you say. Well, the % time in traffic jams is drastically less for me than the % time lost due to missing a transfer, a delayed train or a canceled train.

Traffic jams are annoying but not very common or large, and will only rarely cause me to miss an appointment. Also, you just use cruise control and wait.

Experiencing a delay, cancelation or missing a transfer is almost guaranteed for any trip I make, and this usually means waiting another 30 mins for the next train or bus, and trying to figure out what I need to do to get to my destination (finding alternative trains)

All while being more expensive and less comfortable than just driving somewhere. If it were (drastically) cheaper, I could convince myself to take the time loss. But it is not, it is literally more expensive to take the train or bus than to drive if you already own a car.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#349

Post by donkeyd »

davidmurdoch wrote: post #309
taylodl wrote: post #287

The young are falling out of love with cars because they're unaffordable. It's as simple as that. It's yet another sign the standard of living is declining for the young. The average new car price in the U.S. is now over $47K (Consumer Reports). I make a good living and I'm not going to pay that kind of money for a new car! A young person would be stupid to pay that kind of money for a car. Okay, so what about used c…

Not just that, cars are boring now .

The ford Fiesta (ST) and Focus (ST/RS) are discontinued in favor of more MPV/SUV type cars. It's such a shame because they're great cars.

Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars

#350

Post by tromp »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #191
rexpress wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>First, let's establish that the Netherlands is a car country...On a typical day, 1 million people use public transport. Cars are the norm, not trains or bicycles. Anyone visiting a Dutch city can see what a distortion this comment is. The sheer volume of bike traffic on largely safe infrastructure is phenomenal. Imagine if even half of these people took to cars instead, it would be gridlock. Life may be good for Dut…

How is that a distortion? It seems like you’re violently agreeing with the parent that many people bike to work but far, far fewer than the majority (which is essentially what the American anti-car rhetoric suggests). > Imagine if even half of these people took to cars instead, it would be gridlock. There are 10 million employed Dutch (Statista) of whom 65% drive (Statista), so an additional half a million would be a…

> There are 10 million employed Dutch (Statistica) of whom 65% drive

People don't just commute to work. Millions of Dutch students commute to school and I expect a large majority of those will bike.

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