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Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

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Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#341

Post by varjag »

dtheodor wrote: post #292
varjag wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Practical neural networks operate in enormous parameter spaces that are impossible to meaningfully test for all possible adversarial inputs and degraded outputs. Your FSD could well recognize stop signs in your battery of tests but not when someone drew a squirrel on it with green sharpie.

Your run of the mill computer program also "operates in enormous parameter spaces that are impossible to meaningfully test for all possible adversarial inputs and degraded outputs".

This is hardly similar as the state of a typical computer program can be meaningfully inspected, allowing both useful insights for adversarial test setups and designing comprehensive formal tests.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#342

Post by slg »

adamjcook wrote: post #296
slg wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point of over-the-air updates is that the owner doesn't need to do anything. For example, both Tesla and Toyota have had bugs in their ABS software that required recalls. The owners of the Toyotas had to physically bring their cars in to get the software update which slows down the adoption drastically. The Teslas received the update automatically and asked for the best time to install the update the next t…

> The OTA updates do provide an avenue to make cars much safer by reducing the friction for these type of safety fixes. True, but let us also acknowledge the immense systems safety downsides of OTA updates given the lack of effective automotive regulation in the US (and to varying degrees globally). OTA updates can also be utilized to hide safety-critical system defects that did exist on a fleet for a time. Also, the…

This is a totally fair response since I didn't say that directly in my comment, but I 100% agree. OTA updates are a valuable safety tool. They also have a chance to be abused. We can rein them in through regulation without getting rid of them entirely because they do have the potential to save a lot of lives.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#343

Post by MengerSponge »

idlewords wrote: post #141

I love that this is the same guy who wants to send people to Mars one-way and then figure out the return trip later.

My Name is Elon Musk and I Want to Help You Die in Space

https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/my-name-is-elon-musk-and...

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#344

Post by robomartin »

If Tesla are not careful with this, drivers of other vehicles will have serious reservations being anywhere around a Tesla. I have to say, I already do.

I will not stay behind or next to a Tesla if I can avoid it. I'll avoid being in front of one if the distance is such that I cannot react if the thing decides to suddenly accelerate or, while stopping, not break enough or at all.

In other words, I have no interest in risking my life and that of my family based on decisions made by both Tesla drivers (engaging drive-assist while not paying attention, sleeping, etc.) or Tesla engineering.

Will this sentiment change? Over time. Sure. If we do the right things. My gut feeling is program similar to crash testing safety will need to be instituted at some point.

A qualified government agency needs to come-up with a serious "torture" test for self-driving cars. Cars must pass a range of required scenario response requirements. Cars will need to be graded based on the result of running the test suite. And, of course, the test suite needs to include an evaluation of scenario response under various failure modes (sensor damage, impairment, disablement and computing system issues).

I am not for greatly expanded government regulation over everything in our lives. However, something like this would, in my opinion, more than justify it. This isn't much different from aircraft and aircraft system certification or medical device testing and licensing.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#345

Post by diebeforei485 »

lolinder wrote: post #232
diebeforei485 wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a PR stunt from Mercedes, because in practice their L3 system is not usually available.

It's available in bumper to bumper rush hour traffic on freeways, and they take liability for any accidents that happen while it's on. That's exactly the kind of system and guarantee that could really have a positive impact on someone's commute.

No, it is rarely available even in those conditions.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#346

Post by LeoPanthera »

winter_blue wrote: post #275
jackmott42 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you planning to join a class action lawsuit so you can get your money back?

FSD Beta is a free[1] opt-in beta. You have to basically drive like a grandpa for a few months to even be eligible. They give you a driving score, and if you take all the fun out of driving a Tesla, then you might become eligible for FSD Beta. I spent months trying, and never got my driving score to the point of qualifying for FSD Beta. I think you need to have of a score of 98 or 99 (and I was in the 70s). [1] The B…

This is no longer true. The safety score program has ended. Now anyone who has paid for FSD can get FSD.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#347

Post by panick21_ »

alex_duf wrote: post #100
pirate787 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I wonder how far would other solutions to reduce road car deaths go with the same budget? How about better public transit, encouraging people to use smaller cars, encouraging cycling with corresponding infrastructure, etc.

> I wonder how far would other solutions to reduce road car deaths go with the same budget?

Far, far, far wider. Reducing road deaths is a pretty well understood, political implementation is the problem.

And the simply fact is, reducing road deaths is cheap. Its very cheap. If you want to make it look good, and fancy, its a bit more expensive.

But the fact is, we know how to do it, and do it cheaply. Fancy next generation car technology is pretty terrible in terms of investment to return.

All you really need is a bunch of paint, and a few concert spectators over various shapes. Pretty much all you have to do is make cars slower, that is by far the most important factor in mixed traffic. There are many ways to achieve this.

If you want to get a bit more fancy and technical, you can make dutch intersections:

Doing things like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_intersection

> How about better public transit, encouraging people to use smaller cars, encouraging cycling with corresponding infrastructure, etc.

How about banning cars from many city centers, or only allowing commercial and people who live there.

How about REQUIRING smaller cars. A limit on car size, specially if you want to enter cities.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#348

Post by jacquesm »

system16 wrote: post #276
LanceJones wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would suggest reading all the disclaimers and screens one has to review (or skip, at their own peril) in order to actually get access to FSD Beta. You would likely not believe a Class Action lawsuit is a cakewalk if you read those screens...

With Tesla's army of lawyers it'll never be a cakewalk, but I can't imagine even miles of T&C can remove a company's responsibility for your car throwing you directly into oncoming traffic, not to mention the potential victim's in the other vehicles.

That alone is why I would love it if Tesla would stop shipping this crap. You get to opt-in as the Tesla owner, but I don't and I'm at least as much at risk.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#349

Post by newaccount74 »

LanceJones wrote: post #120
rootusrootus wrote: post #50

Meanwhile, the only actual L3 capable car is a Mercedes. Plenty of people will argue that AP is actually superior, but I don't think there's any way to say that for sure, given the tight constraints Mercedes has put on their driver assistance in order to lower the liability enough to make L3 not a bankruptcy event. For certain, however, they are more confident in their technology than Tesla is, otherwise Tesla would…

I've used it in Germany over the Christmas holidays. In 8 hours of driving it was only available for 12 minutes.

It's probably only worth it if you have a commute in heavy traffic. If you're stuck in traffic on the Autobahn every morning, then it could be useful.

Otherwise, not really.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#350

Post by hospadar »

jskrablin wrote: post #172
LoveMortuus wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under promise, over deliver

Over promise, never deliver.

Over promise, accidentally buy a huge social media company way over market value because of a prank, never deliver
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