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Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” response to ChatGPT

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Re: Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” response to ChatGPT

#341
post #66

The writing is on the wall. Sundar hasn’t done anything but maintain the status quo at Google. That is a loss for google, particularly GCP didn’t gain any market share, couldn’t productize their self driving car platform effectively, the ad market is facing increased pressure from all governments. I see him replaced soon or some activist investor demanding some changes.

Failure of Self driving certainly can't be attributed to Sundar. Yes GCP has obviously failed.

What Sundar has done well is the AI first focus. Deepmind acquisition was key and they are developing their own chat thing which very well might bail them out. Thanks to him, Google spends a large amount in AI related R&D.

What Sundar's main issue is his philosophy of "Reward Effort, Not Outcomes". This leads to people pretending to work hard, releasing half baked products. Instead he should change this to awarding long term outcomes.

His other issue is that he is not a good storyteller (e.g. like Nadella). Being a non-founder CEO he needs to work on this.

Re: Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” response to ChatGPT

#342
I am constantly amazed that chat bots so completely capture imagination.

They have been, and will always be a hollow shell of interaction. Has social drive atrophied so much that many (most under 30?) prefer to talk to nothing instead of taking to someone?

Re: Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” response to ChatGPT

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re not using it right. LLM fundamentally don’t know s*t about this company’s exec team. Maybe some names are statistically close to the company name in vector-space but no guarantee (as you discovered). The LLM won’t revolutionize search as it is today for factual queries . They’re Clippy 2.0. It’s great people are finding use for the models, but I wish this search story would be balanced out a bit. I was laid of…

But the whole point of these debates is a discussion about whether Bing is going to eat Google's lunch in search , which very much is about finding out about things like companies' exec teams. The ability of an LLM to generate decent content (provided you're an attentive editor or the users of the content aren't too discerning) could be huge for Office365, but that's irrelevant to any potential threat to Google, sinc…

> But the whole point ... is ... in _search_ (not content generation)

True. And also, keep in mind ... it doesn't truly have to be _better_ than Google search. You just need to start and maintain a _social trend_ so that the mainstream public _chooses_ it over Google. People use Google because it's the first and only option that comes to mind -- they haven't actually compared its accuracy to anything else in a long time (the audience of Hacker News is of course an exception).

Re: Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” response to ChatGPT

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google didn’t act fast enough over the last year but acted too fast over the last month . If Google was able to launch anything Bard related that someone could use -even if flawed- I think most people would call it a win. It would mean that Google takes it seriously but also has the tech on a shelf in a usable form . Google was understandably not worried about search until ChatGPT. Once the first whiff of search-repl…

"It would mean that Google takes it seriously but also has the tech on a shelf in a usable form" Even if unusable, they have the network effects and brand... just get something out there to play with that will make some sort of impression, however flawed, that can quickly be iterated on. It can be ancillary to the current experience. Bing suffers from being so historically unpopular that from a branding perspective i…

But if Google releases something that's bad or drags down the search experience then they have a lot to lose. If Bing releases something that's bad, then nothing is lost.

Re: Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” response to ChatGPT

#345
post #9

Here's the weird thing though, as discussed yesterday [1], the Microsoft demo was totally broken as well. In the end, everyone is looking for a big platform shift (next MOBILE!!!) and hype getting ahead of reality. When we look back in 3 months we will wonder why we thought LLM/GPT type queries will replace search in all forms. https://dkb.blog/p/bing-ai-cant-be-trusted

> When we look back in 3 months we will wonder why we thought LLM/GPT type queries will replace search in all forms.

Yes, and when we look again in 6 months, they will surpass Google already. It happened too many times in the last few years - something thought impossible was actually doable with a clever twist or two[1].

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSQ495wpWXs&t=2148s

Re: Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” response to ChatGPT

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google isn't going to suffer severe business consequences for (temporarily) losing dominance in the "AI integrated search" field, because the revenue from that field is effectively NaN compared to Google's current revenue. They might hypothetically suffer if AI integrated search grows to become a major fraction of the existing Search revenue and Google fails to deploy their massive existing ML/AI resources to match B…

Please show me exactly where I said otherwise. Read the comment thread you just replied to and tell me how any of what you just said is relevant to me correcting the sentence "Bing isn't dominating anything haha."

You said they are dominating "AI search" but that's wrong in many ways:

- Google's entire search engine has had many layers of "AI" powering it for years.

- Bing hasn't even released this supposed AI search engine to the public.

Your other example was Tesla and the two examples couldn't be more different. Your statement would be like someone saying Tesla was "dominating" electric cars before they ever even sold a single Roadster and had just posted a demo video. It's just wrong. I can be first to market with a banana that glows in the dark, am I in the club now too?

They may dominate if this exact form of conversational answers proves popular and if launched more than a hacked together demo and only then is some strong claim they are doing anything interesting could be worthwhile.

Until then they are kind-of first-but-actually-not-really in a kind-of-theoretical-market, and not dominating it all or reaping any first-mover advantage given their opponents are ready to follow on immediately.

Re: Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” response to ChatGPT

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google didn’t act fast enough over the last year but acted too fast over the last month . If Google was able to launch anything Bard related that someone could use -even if flawed- I think most people would call it a win. It would mean that Google takes it seriously but also has the tech on a shelf in a usable form . Google was understandably not worried about search until ChatGPT. Once the first whiff of search-repl…

"It would mean that Google takes it seriously but also has the tech on a shelf in a usable form" Even if unusable, they have the network effects and brand... just get something out there to play with that will make some sort of impression, however flawed, that can quickly be iterated on. It can be ancillary to the current experience. Bing suffers from being so historically unpopular that from a branding perspective i…

Why should Google risk their brand reputation in this way? The majority of their users probably have never heard of ChatGPT. They just know Google as the thing that gives them factual information. Google have something to lose by directing their enormous user base to a buggy ChatGPT clone.

Bing isn't unpopular, it's just a non-entity. They don't have any brand value to harm.

> that can quickly be iterated on. It's pretty dubious to assume problems with this tech can be fixed on a short time scale

Re: Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” response to ChatGPT

#348
post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with you. I honestly have no idea which one the commenter is talking about.

Microsoft has a chance at eating Google's lunch. There's definitely no joy about that at Google.

Google ate Microsoft's mission statement (a computer on every desk) for breakfast (with Android). I wonder what joy they feel about that.

Re: Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” response to ChatGPT

#349
post #318
post #9

Here's the weird thing though, as discussed yesterday [1], the Microsoft demo was totally broken as well. In the end, everyone is looking for a big platform shift (next MOBILE!!!) and hype getting ahead of reality. When we look back in 3 months we will wonder why we thought LLM/GPT type queries will replace search in all forms. https://dkb.blog/p/bing-ai-cant-be-trusted

> When we look back in 3 months we will wonder why we thought LLM/GPT type queries will replace search in all forms. I really hope so. LLM for search seems like a big leap right now. It isn't even really search but just a UI change for interacting with the underlying search engine. The caveats being that the people who actually think and create don't gain the clicks that they would get today (with the accompanying ad…

> I really hope so. LLM for search seems like a big leap right now. It isn't even really search but just a UI change for interacting with the underlying search engine.

To question the underlying premise: what makes you so sure that an improved interface for searching _isn't_ meaningful? From what I can tell, we're a lot closer to optimal collection/categorization of data in search engines than we are to optimal interfaces for searching that data. We've all seen stories like the grandmother typing in questions into google with "please" and "thank you" (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/16/grandmother-...), and the concept of having good "google-fu" shows that right now, being able to find the answer to your question is influenced not just by whether the answer exists but whether you're skilled at _asking_ the question.

I don't think this improvement is limited to non-technical folks either. As an example from just the past couple of days for me, I recently have been running into issues with Linux gaming on my laptop due to abysmal power management, and from doing some research, it's somewhat of a known thing with my laptop brand and model. I decided to research what laptops are known for being good for gaming on Linux and also fit my specific preferences (at least 1440p, 16 GB or more RAM, and AMD CPU/GPU for good measure due to my issues being related to Nvidia's weirdness on Linux). I spent a good hour or two finding specific models that seemed promising, searching for mentions of them in places like /r/linux_gaming, looking up availability and prices, and while I found a few potentially decent options, I didn't have much confidence that I was finding all potential options. I found some options for laptop-specific searches that were purportedly able to let me select on whatever criteria I wanted (e.g. noteb.com, notebookcheck.net), but none of them let me pick the _exact_ critieria I wanted; some of them were too granular (e.g. making me search and select exact GPU models to check off instead of letting me just say something like "discrete AMD GPU from 2021 or later", or giving me a list of 30 or so different resolutions and making me manually check off the ones I wanted to include without enabling bulk checking with shift-click) and some of them were not granular enough (e.g. only letting me select a single resolution to search for at a time, or allowing me to require a discrete GPU but not specify the vendor). On a whim, I decided to open up a session with ChatGPT and present it with these criteria to see what it came up with. I needed to nudge it to prune a bit (occasionally it would give me a clearly incorrect option, e.g. one with an Nvidia GPU or only 1080p), but within a few messages, I was able to get it to generate dozens of options. Unfortunately, it only had knowledge up through 2021, and despite trying various roleplaying methods with it to circumvent the "I can't search the internet" policy based on things I saw back when it first became available, I wasn't able to get it to completely finish the job, so I only was able to use those options as a guide for looking up newer models and then finding reviews from people who had used them for Linux gaming. If/when a language model like that that has access to search current data is made generally available, it genuinely seems like that would be a game-changer.

Re: Google employees criticize CEO for “dumpster fire” response to ChatGPT

#350
post #9

Here's the weird thing though, as discussed yesterday [1], the Microsoft demo was totally broken as well. In the end, everyone is looking for a big platform shift (next MOBILE!!!) and hype getting ahead of reality. When we look back in 3 months we will wonder why we thought LLM/GPT type queries will replace search in all forms. https://dkb.blog/p/bing-ai-cant-be-trusted

An important difference, to me, is that a lot of people already have familiarity with ChatGPT; either directly or through friends, family or just news.

Most of those folks (judging by my own friends) had very low expectations which ChatGPT blew out of the water. When they read "Microsoft search with ChatGPT" they are looking for integration of at least somewhat known quantity into a not so great (perception-wise) search. Win-win. If that bot stumbles in demo, no big deal. They already saw 100 examples, 95 good and 5 goofy; adding one to either bucket is not critical.

Google AI bot is an unknown quantity. Google search is (again, just perception wise) the leader in the search. When the bot stumbles it is a big red flag.

I really do not know why Google rushed it out instead of coming up with a friendly "hey, play with our toy first" approach. With this approach the bot can be iterated and made cool (hey, we can pair it with a stable diffusion-like painter for kids; or a lullaby composer; whaterver). Once cool, then it is "hey, you know, you can start leveraging it from the google search tomorrow". Screwups like this really make me think Google's rot is very broad. My 2c.

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