The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector • Hacker News Board

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#341

Post by matwood » Mon, Jan 23, 2023, 10:18 PM UTC

yamtaddle wrote: post #318

mindslight wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you've got a significant leak in a supply pipe, there should be a valve on the branch that will allow you to shut off just that branch rather than the whole house. You might need to shut off the whole house first while you figure out where that valve is, but you probably won't have to do ad-hoc plumbing to get most of the house back on. But yes, in general I'm always for people becoming familiar with tools and DIY…

Owned a half-dozen US houses built between 1907 and 2015 and have never actually seen such a thing. If you're lucky someone's done some work on a branch at some point and was courteous enough to install a shut-off, though usually off somewhere weird where there was already damage or whatever, not where you'd normally look for it. [EDIT] Actually, my parents' very-new house has that... but because it's all-PEX, so it'…

I had the main irrigation feed burst over Christmas and it's just a branch off the main line into the house with no valve! Had to turn the water off at the street, and couldn't fix it until the day after Christmas.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#342

Post by yamtaddle » Mon, Jan 23, 2023, 10:33 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #329

yamtaddle wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some finish materials are much worse. Small (by modern standards) ordinary middle-class homes in, say, the 1950s, had the kind of interior and exterior doors, and baseboards/molding, that'd be considered luxury-tier today. Even big expensive McMansions usually don't have doors and molding that nice, now. The higher end might get the luxury-tier front door... maybe. But any back or side doors won't be that nice, and u…

Could this be survivor bias at work? All the nice 1950 stuff you see are only around because they're nice enough to keep around. If they're junk they'd be replaced in a reno or something.

Nah, it's pretty normal even in small-fairly-poor-town ~900 sqft houses that were absolutely not anything special at the time. You'll see whole neighborhoods built like that. Decent-or-better wood was just cheaper back then, and the labor to finish it was (relatively) way cheaper, too. All the houses would have these heavy, thick, solid wood doors that you don't see in new-build neighborhoods unless someone customized it or it's a very high-end neighborhood.

Growing up, basically all trim & baseboards in early-90s-or-earlier houses was solid wood, even in poorer neighborhoods, though by then solid wood front and interior doors were on the way out as features of middle-class houses. These days, you might see solid wood in one or two public rooms as a kind of highlight feature in upper-end McMansions, but almost no-one finishes e.g. extra bedrooms with solid wood baseboards anymore. They used to be standard for the whole house—you almost never saw anything else.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#343

Post by yamtaddle » Mon, Jan 23, 2023, 10:36 PM UTC

mindslight wrote: post #337

yamtaddle wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Owned a half-dozen US houses built between 1907 and 2015 and have never actually seen such a thing. If you're lucky someone's done some work on a branch at some point and was courteous enough to install a shut-off, though usually off somewhere weird where there was already damage or whatever, not where you'd normally look for it. [EDIT] Actually, my parents' very-new house has that... but because it's all-PEX, so it'…

Hah. I hadn't realized I was taking that for granted (over multiple houses myself), and just figured they were required by code (even though it makes the chrome sink shutoffs kind of redundant). Score 1 for DIYers doing more maintainable work than professionals. FWIW a SharkBite valve or NPT adapter into a valve would seem to be a handier thing to have around than a pure cap. For example, you can attach a valve witho…

Hell, maybe it is required by code in some places. I've only really looked at the plumbing of houses in a three-state cluster in the Midwest, maybe elsewhere more-conveniently-designed plumbing is normal.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#344

Post by mindslight » Mon, Jan 23, 2023, 10:41 PM UTC

harvey9 wrote: post #334

mindslight wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had to read these comments twice, because I had assumed the "families" were the immigrants and the "four working adults" were yuppies, both in line with my own experience. It's not immigration that has screwed over family formation - it's the housing racket itself, backed up by oppressive monetary policy that sucks real wealth into the financial industry. Making home ownership into a (guaranteed) investment combine…

It's both, at different market segments. Four yuppies (who are sometimes skilled visa-holders) sharing a higher end place, or four less well-off sharers (who are sometimes illegal migrants).

Sure, but it's a bit odd to direct focus at immigrants when it's many different market segments. If anything, immigrants are generally more willing to live poorer with traditional gender roles, having children in spite of the extractive economic conditions. It's the native born who put it off waiting for the right time.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#345

Post by asdff » Mon, Jan 23, 2023, 10:54 PM UTC

RC_ITR wrote: post #267

hindsightbias wrote: post #2

> number of houses or total square footage built per employee Average house size has probably doubled in the last 50 years. Nail guns can't make up for building code and higher finish work demands. It's not uncommon to see 6 or 7 layers in sheathing today.

There's the theory that building codes are used similarly (and complimentarily) to zoning laws to limit the supply of new housing (and therefore raise property values). A great example being fire walls and mandatory self-latching doors between garages and living spaces - definitely a logical thing (cars and their gas are flammable, so let's isolate them from the house). When you look at the data [0], garage fires are…

This even extends to stuff added to builds that are mandated by law and have little reasonable justification. For example, a city might demand all new apartment units need to have a balcony, and all new apartment buildings might need to have some open courtyard space. Now you've increased the cost per unit by a huge amount by mandating these balconies and also the unrentable voidspace.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#346

Post by asdff » Mon, Jan 23, 2023, 11:09 PM UTC

notch656c wrote: post #268

loandbehold wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just manual labor. You need an architect, structural engineer. Getting all permits, environmental analysis. A lot of expensive "knowledge workers" involved. Then there are materials, rental of construction equipment, insurance. Developers who build large number of row houses at the same time can get costs down through economies of scale.

In the county next to me you can self certify and pretty promise you did all that "knowledge worker" shit. No one will ever check, the self certification just promises you did the stuff and the government promises they won't investigate. Somehow not everyone is dying in city-wide house fires. Sounds like southern california done fucked themselves with over-regulating that stuff.

It's because its used as a vehicle for bribery. See Jose Huizar the former LA city councilmember who pleaded guilty for bribery a few days ago. If its easy to get things built then no one would be paying you in paper bags of cash to get things built.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#347

Post by nemo44x » Mon, Jan 23, 2023, 11:10 PM UTC

pixl97 wrote: post #175

nemo44x wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nail guns can't make up for building code and higher finish work demands. It's not uncommon to see 6 or 7 layers in sheathing today. Yeah pretty much this I suspect. The paper doesn't propose that more regulations and complex code is why it's harder to build things today. And that's not a bad thing - code is a great thing since it sets a standard. Houses from 100 years ago, a carpenter could just make game time dec…

Also everything that is built needs regular inspection while in progress. When the frame is put up it is typically inspected to ensure it meets code and that correct fasteners and brackets are used. Until the inspection is done you don't see roofing and electrical finished up. Then you have the electrical and plumbing on top the foundation. And when that is in its inspected again. Also heating cooling piping. Then fi…

> Also everything that is built needs regular inspection while in progress

And this is a very good thing indeed. One thing I really love about the system here is we have detailed code and objective inspections based on it. Creates safe structures that can be planned and priced and immune to bribery.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#348

Post by Andrex » Mon, Jan 23, 2023, 11:17 PM UTC

anonreeeeplor wrote: post #12

Corruption was a massive problem in USA industry as well as slowdowns due to legal red tape. My guess is incompetent government is at the root of the problem. The more you scale red tape, the harder it is to do anything. Look at the California high speed rail. Corrupt governments make far more money by slowing down a project and using it as a washing machine to extract rents. Getting large public projects to misspend…

How much of the red tape is needed vs. unnecessary? I'm glad lead isn't being used anymore and wheelchair access is required, among other things, but I can see things getting nitpicky and senseless real quick. My mom's antique-style shop had to close due to some really strict fire regulations she couldn't do anything about (another store setup a thin wall between their store and hers' and she had been operating for over a year). Fire marshall just walked in one day and said "you're shut down," like something out of Seinfeld[1].

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mom_%26_Pop_Store#:~:text=...

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#349

Post by withinboredom » Mon, Jan 23, 2023, 11:24 PM UTC

baremetal wrote: post #253

withinboredom wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's on the books, under "toilets" or something. That money has to go somewhere. Also, undocumented workers still have to pay income taxes.

>Also, undocumented workers still have to pay income taxes. Undocumented workers are sometimes paid in cash.

Getting paid in cash doesn’t excuse you from paying taxes, or filing them.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#350

Post by fortylove » Mon, Jan 23, 2023, 11:41 PM UTC

hindsightbias wrote: post #249

fortylove wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>6 or 7 layers in sheathing today. What do you mean by this?

https://www.finehomebuilding.com/project-guides/insulation/c...

Ah, thanks for the response. My confusion is that in American building, the term sheathing usually just refers to the outer layer of plywood that nails to the studs.

Edit to add: this really hasn't changed all that much in the past 100 years. Our house is over 100 years old, and is built very similarly to a modern stick framed house, with the exception of not having insulation (when built), and with the sheathing being planks instead of plywood. Also, the lath&plaster interior walls were a lot more involved in making than modern drywall finishing.