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Meta prohibited from using personal data for advertisement

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341–350 of 443 posts

Re: Meta prohibited from using personal data for advertisement

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that if anytime anyone came up with a business model you banned it, that would produce more innovation in business models. But you also wouldn’t get any of the products because you’ve banned all of them. So it seems like a bad way to run an economic bloc. The EU in particular doesn’t even know what they’re doing and none of their poorly drafted “blue is green now because I said so” laws even work. You just ge…

The cookie banners are a result of bad/non-existent enforcement. The GDPR actually makes 90% of them illegal. Enforcement appears to be slowly ramping up. > The value you get from Facebook is the ads are relevant If this was true, this ruling would be a nothingburger because everyone would voluntarily opt into the targeted advertising so they can get all that "value" you're speaking of. In reality though the value pe…

> The cookie banners are a result of bad/non-existent enforcement.

That is part of the regulation. If you are unwilling to consistently and correctly enforce the regulations that you're proposing, that results in selective enforcement and is bad regulation.

Re: Meta prohibited from using personal data for advertisement

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legislation is used in cases where individuals either can't make that choice or if individuals' choices would cause negative externalities for some people. That's how we get food safety laws, employment laws, waste disposal laws, etc. With regards to food safety for example, the vast majority of people don't have the equipment nor knowledge to be able to test whether the food they just bought isn't contaminated, so i…

> That's how we get food safety laws Yes, and we also have food labeling laws that require companies to truthfully warn consumers about some mildly-unhealthy things (sugar, trans fats) on the nutrition facts label - but, crucially, these laws do not ban those things. That's the argument being made - that companies should be able to run on business models that aren't extremely bad (putting yourself into slavery, physi…

> > That's how we get food safety laws

> Yes, and we also have food labeling laws that require companies to truthfully warn consumers about some mildly-unhealthy things (sugar, trans fats) on the nutrition facts label - but, crucially, these laws do not ban those things.

The US is pretty big in the war on drugs, so yes they ban things. Moreover they use their military and economic power to pressure others to do the same.

> That's the argument being made - that companies should be able to run on business models that aren't extremely bad (putting yourself into slavery, physical harm) as long as they clearly communicate to consumers exactly what they're doing (which, to be clear, is not happening now - a 30-page privacy policy in legalese with lots of "mays" is nowhere close to the "privacy nutrition label" that we deserve).

So in principle you are agreeing companies should be regulated. You just disagree on the extend.

> > The same can apply for data protection - very few people have the skills and resources to reverse-engineer every single binary they run and inspect network traffic, so it's better if significant penalties just force all companies to not misuse personal data by default.

> That's a crazy invalid argument. The fact that very few people can reverse-engineer binaries doesn't actually matter. The government also isn't going to reverse-engineer every binary in existence, nor do they test every single product that is sold for banned substances, because that's not the way that (e.g. food safety) laws work.

> The way that food safety laws actually work is that the government says "here are the rules for labelling, and here are a list of things that absolutely cannot go into your product at all" and then may occasionally test for compliance. That's exactly how both (a) labelling (but allowing) and (b) banning sale/(mis)use of personal information would work.

> Your (invalid) argument has nothing to do with the argument about whether it's better for companies to not do thing x vs do thing x but clearly warn customers about it, because the enforcement/detection mechanism is exactly the same, whereas you're (falsely) implying that it somehow differs.

I think the main argument is actually not about how easy it is to understand the implications of certain labels, but an argument about power balances. The power imbalance of a single consumer compared to a company like Facebook is immense. Facebook is employing many psychologist to make their product as addictive as possible ( the notion that we are rational beings that are immune to psychological manipulation has long been proven false), moreover even if the overstep some lines, their many lawyers will ensure that as a consumer you still only have a small chance for regress.

Democracy is fundamentally a tool to balance power and that's exactly what is happening in this case, people want Facebook et al to be regulated to balance the power. Admittedly there are problems, i.e. voters are also subject to psychological manipulation, but it's still much better than anything else we have.

Re: Meta prohibited from using personal data for advertisement

#343
post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes one of the purposes of the GDPR is to make it so such a service does not exist.

If I want that service and someone wants to provide it to me, how is it the role of government to say we can't make that trade?

If I want to take crack cocaine, and someone wants to sell it to me, how is it the role of government to say we can't make that trade?

Sure, hyperbole, but the role of government is to regulate when the externalities of a transaction aren't being accounted for within the transaction.

Re: Meta prohibited from using personal data for advertisement

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is orthogonal to the GP's post, which was asking "why can't people choose whether they want to pay for things with privacy" (paraphrased). The solving of information asymmetry is a necessary precondition to that choice, but after you've solved it, why shouldn't you have that choice?

You also have to make sure it's really a choice, for one. If I can't avoid the companies that require users to pay with privacy, that's a problem.

Yup, of course - antitrust and all that.

Re: Meta prohibited from using personal data for advertisement

#345
post #75

Meta can still use personal data for ads. They just have to explicitly ask for consent. I do not like these sensationalized titles on HN.

I would be totally fine with a regulation where they had to ask before using personal data to show ads. The overreach is that the GDPR requires that the user be able to say "no" but still use the service -- you can't make use of the service conditional on accepting ads, and you can't require users to pay instead.

This is because otherwise there (mostly) wouldn’t be any service you can use without tracking, because that tends to be the most profitable way to operate. What services still can do under the GDPR is provide a payed version without ads (and many do successfully). It’s just that if they provide a free version with tracking, they also have to provide a free version without tracking.

Re: Meta prohibited from using personal data for advertisement

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those people will be given a choice (assuming Meta doesn’t throw a tantrum and decide to leave the EU in Brexit fashion - which they are more than welcome to do!). “Do you want us to use [extensive list of all of the kinds of information we have meticulously gathered about you] to show you more relevant ads? Yes/no” I have a personal belief on what most people will answer to that question. You may disagree. But it do…

You don’t have to guess. We know. How many people use Gmail vs paying for a provider not owned by an advertiser company? How many people use Hulu free/lite tier vs paying more for zero ads? How many people are flocking to use a paid privacy focused search engine like Neeva? Hell even DDG hasn’t taken over and it’s free! People have choices and their preferences are clear: “give me free shit!”

A ton of people use Outlook.com. The choice is usually not about the presence of ads (these are very moderate with both providers), but about the UX one finds more convenient / used to. When something like Protonmail supports tags, I may give them a try.

I do pay for Youtube premium, because without that, the amount of ads really annoys me. I usually buy ad-free versions of freemium Android apps. There must be some value to pay for; making the free version annoying subtracts enough value that paying for the uncrippled version becomes a reasonable choice. (I usually buy paid versions of open-source apps to keep them open-source; that's also a value.)

Also, a lot of people are very much not well off. They often don't have that extra $5; I remember being in that state myself as a student. So they will put up with free shit, even if it has a noticeable shit component :(

Re: Meta prohibited from using personal data for advertisement

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what profile? i don't use said platform, but they still hoard data about me anyways. so fuck 'em if they get barred from doing shady shit. and yes, i feel that all of the cursing is mandatory because being nice has gotten us fuck all for protections from these leeches.

This article isn’t about tracking and so they’re not being punished for any of that. Turn your cookies off!

If you honestly believe that's all it takes, then I would honestly suggest you need to do more reading on the subject.

Otherwise, yes, you're very sarcastically funny.

Re: Meta prohibited from using personal data for advertisement

#348
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Punishing companies directly that do business with Facebook/Meta would probably be the strongest deterrent. If we can sanction countries, why not companies?

That's how sanctions are usually implemented. See: Russia and Iran, trickling down to their state businesses and armaments industries, tricking down to their suppliers. The only difference here would be there isn't a nation-state as the starting point.

Sorry, I meant the other way around. Sanction Meta and subsidiaries, and then punish companies doing business with them.

Re: Meta prohibited from using personal data for advertisement

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the market" isn't some omnipotent magical force that inherently provides all options. Given the current status quo, it's pretty clear that "the market" isn't solving this problem. Legislation is needed because "the market" has failed to regulate itself. "the market" does not work for consumers, it's shaped for and by sellers. Left to its own devices, capitalism creates conditions that are explicitly harmful to the p…

>it's pretty clear that "the market" isn't solving this problem. Have you considered that it isn't being solved because consumers don't actually mind the extra tracking? All the tracking does is attempt to give them better ads. Better ads provide a better user experience. Personalized ads are a win win for both the company and the user.

> Have you considered that it isn't being solved because consumers don't actually mind the extra tracking?

This is an interesting hypothesis, but there's no evidence for it.

Here's how we can test it: enact regulation requiring companies to disclose what personal information they collect, how they use it, and what third parties they disclose it to, and put that information in an equally prominent place as the price (e.g. "$10/month plus we collect your name, phone number, email address, and mailing address and sell it to 16 third-parties[link to list] for advertising purposes).

Then we'll see how many people are willing to pay for services with their data.

Re: Meta prohibited from using personal data for advertisement

#350

I like Facebook targeted ads. They're more interesting than generic untargeted ads. When I was shopping for an electric bike Facebook showed me ebikes of the type I wanted (cargo) for weeks. It's convenient. Yesterday I made a comment on a hat ad (I didn't think any man except Walter White should wear a pork pie hat) and now all my ads are for hats. I didn't realize their were so many kinds of men's hats. I don't fee…

You can just search for hats? Or voluntarily opt into getting tracked?

> You can just search for hats

I am not a hat wearer but now I might become one because I saw some cool hats I like. This was by accident because I wasn't in the market for hats.

I don't believe privacy exists when using modern tech which is why I make all my Facebook posts public. I don't ever want to kid myself that what I am staying stays private to only my friends and family. I have not encountered a downside to Facebook tracking, but maybe you can point one out.

> Or voluntarily opt into getting tracked?

Yes, this would be fine with me

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