Earlier quoted context omitted.
The point you are missing is that if I am an EU citizen, in the US, on my US friend’s computer even, your crappy “location detector” just denied me my rights as an EU citizen. No one cares if the IP address was thought to originate in the EU or US or wherever because that has never been enough information to tell if you are dealing with an EU customer.
I think the point you're missing about the GDPR is that it doesn't matter where your citizenship is from, your location is what matters. US persons in the EU is as well protected as EU persons in the EU. No matter where you're from, if you're in the EU, GDPR applies. Edit: in order to make this discussion a bit more fact based, as some misinformation is starting to leak into it: I'm referring to Article 3 from GDPR,…
Shopify Is Illegal in Germany
341–349 of 349 posts
Re: Shopify Is Illegal in Germany
#342Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think the point you're missing about the GDPR is that it doesn't matter where your citizenship is from, your location is what matters. US persons in the EU is as well protected as EU persons in the EU. No matter where you're from, if you're in the EU, GDPR applies. Edit: in order to make this discussion a bit more fact based, as some misinformation is starting to leak into it: I'm referring to Article 3 from GDPR,…
You managed to miss the one case the grand parent poster actually mentioned: An EU person located in the US. This person is also covered by the GDPR thereby rendering any geo-absed rules and routings useless.
They are not, where are you getting this from?
Again, Article 3 from GDPR, "Territorial scope";
> This Regulation applies to the processing of personal data of data subjects who are in the Union by a controller or processor not established in the Union
data subjects who are in the Union
Re: Shopify Is Illegal in Germany
#343Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, US CDNs are definitely illegal under GDPR. They've fined people before for using Google Fonts' CDN because it transmitted residential EU residential IP addresses to someone within the reach of the US government. The law is that you have to have prior consent or it has to be necessary to take steps requested by the Data Subject. US CDNs are not considered necessary because an EU server could host those assets ins…
What about Github/Gitlab Pages?
Re: Shopify Is Illegal in Germany
#344Earlier quoted context omitted.
Fair enough. Just wanted to make sure the take away wasnt that US companies cannot deliver services _at all_ to EU. Just curious whats your product/service? And how is PII used (high level)? As a dev and sw architect, and strong supporter of GDPR, I think its interesting to (attempt to) find engineering solutions for the challenges posed by GDPR (and Schrems)
> Fair enough. Just wanted to make sure the take away wasnt that US companies cannot deliver services _at all_ to EU. With the CLOUD Act, I'm wondering if it is illegal. > Just curious whats your product/service? And how is PII used (high level)? As a dev and sw architect, and strong supporter of GDPR, I think its interesting to (attempt to) find engineering solutions for the challenges posed by GDPR (and Schrems) It…
Yes emails are PII. In general anything that can identify a person. Its a broad interpretation of "identify a person", and actually hasn't got anything to do with the sensitivity of the information. There are classes of PII for sensitive data, and extra rules for processing that, but when figuring out _if_ data is PII, sensitivity doesn't really come into it.
And you are correct, _any_ PII is "game over" in this case. But this case (US EU) is also a bit of an edge case to GDPR I think. I mean most of GDPR is concerned with how a company should handle PII. Then there are some rules about transferring data to "unsafe" countries. Unsafe in this case means countries where there is high risk that the company is not handling PII correctly and/or nothing the EU (citizen) can do about it. And this is where your CLOUD Act + Schrems II comes in. It makes US an "unsafe" country to transfer data to because it brings a high risk for the EU citizen that their GDPR rights cannot/will not be enforced (and the Privacy Shield agreenment that used to make it okay away is no longer valid).
Its unfortunate, I think, because it puts GDPR in a special negative light for US engineers, and that takes away from the many good things in GDPR. I actually think most of the stuff in there is pretty good. And just for reference - I run my own company, so I'm "enjoying" GDPR compliance fully, and sure, its more work, but I haven't yet encountered a part of GDPR where I havn't though "isn't this actually how I wanted my data to be handled by other companies?"
Okay, now for the fun part - thinking up designs/architectures where your product would be GDPR compliant. Im just doing this for my own fun btw, and perhaps a nice discussion. Not trying to tell you what to do :)
Since we have the hole "unsafe" third country situation, no transfer of PII is okay. This is a bit more restricted that what we would normally deal with under GDPR.
The basic tenants for being compliant here is two things: 1) If you/your employees hasn't got access to the data, e.g. because you don't have it, you are not handling PII. 2) If data is not being sent from the client (located in EU) to your US servers, you don't have the "unsafe" country data transfer situation. And the your are compliant.
Emails (and other data attributes, like username, name, CC details, shoe size etc). I think the way to go about this is thinking in terms of that you actually need server side to make core functionality work, and what could actually be kept client side and never sent to your servers. See, in this case the problem is transferring the PII to the US. If you can somehow have a "fat" application client side, like a SPA, could you avoid sending the email to the server? What you must have is a unique identifier for users, sure, and email is normally that. But you could hash the email addr and use that as a unique key for the user. You just need it to be guaranteed unique, and dont care (most likely) what the actual mail address is. Note: Stil have to be careful with the hashed email as unique key because that could still identify a user, since its unique, and therefore PII. However if you hash client side and only send the hash, you will only have the hash server side. And if the only datapoint you have is a hash then it cannot identify a person on its own (given the properties of a one-way hash function). You'd need to put that hash in context with other info to be able to identify a person from it. And then its not PII, and you can send it to your server no problem.
The same concept should be usable for most basic data attributes, i.e. shift everything PII to the client, and if data needs to be sent then do you actually the actual value of the data or do you just need the data to have a certain property, e.g. be unique or be not-null or whatever.
Then there is the matter of storing all this data we've now shifted to the client. This is were the textbook would say "left as exercise for the reader" LOL. Storage for web apps especially is gonna be annoying to deal with. If you have an actual (not web app) client, its much easier. If your users are developers, you can get away with less user-friendly ways of managing that data client side in a web app. It seems solvable without too much fuss, with some form of local storage.
Public keys. This one is though. A public key is PII. You need the public key server side because (I'm guessing) when a user submits code (s)he attaches a signature, that you need to verify. You having that public key is part of the hole PKI idea. The first idea that comes to mind is based on the same "do you need the value of the data or do you need to know a property about the data"-thinking. You need to know the signature is valid for the submitted code. If you had a magic black box that could give you a yes/no (that you could trust) on that, you wouldn't actually need the public key, you could just give the code and the signature to your black box and it would say yay or nay.
If there was a service (i.e. API) on a server in europe that played the part of the black box, and you trusted it, you could "just" call the service with the signature (again hashed/encrypted and if you don't have the key, you can't relate the signature to a person, so its not PII) and code as input, and the service would return true/false, when you would have what you need. And no PII i.e. the public key would need to be transferred to your server / you wound't need to handle (store) it. Here is the bad part about this idea: Schrems II is actually saying that its not enough for the server/service to be in EU. If the company running the server/service is US owned, its still considered a data transfer to a US entity. So the signature verification service in EU would have to be run by someone not you/your company. And you'd ofc need to pay to use that service, no free lunch. So you'll have to consider if the value of being able to offer your product to EU customers worth the hassle and cost of this setup?
I feel like there must be more solutions to the public key one, but they don't come to mind right now. Was a fun exercise anyway :) I'm sure I've made so many assumptions about how your product works, that the above suggestions would never work in practise, but my point was more to illustrate that GDPR compliance can be dealt with by rethinking many of our go-to design patterns (i.e. have a central database with user info).
Btw something like the above would be privacy by design, which is a core principle of GDPR and if one makes a product in that way, that would be way more compliant than 99% of all software that existed pre GPRD and slapped compliance on after GDPR was introduced.
Re: Shopify Is Illegal in Germany
#345Earlier quoted context omitted.
You managed to miss the one case the grand parent poster actually mentioned: An EU person located in the US. This person is also covered by the GDPR thereby rendering any geo-absed rules and routings useless.
> An EU person located in the US. This person is also covered by the GDPR They are not, where are you getting this from? Again, Article 3 from GDPR, "Territorial scope"; > This Regulation applies to the processing of personal data of data subjects who are in the Union by a controller or processor not established in the Union data subjects who are in the Union
Re: Shopify Is Illegal in Germany
#346Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is an option for a service provider not to store the IP address anywhere. For users with accounts the standard ToS can handle it.
Who in their right mind would not store a visitor's IP address. How are you supposed to handle abuse or performance issues a visitor might have? Or perform analytics? It makes sense to not store if you're running some kind of privacy service.
There is such a thing as "legitimate interests" in the GDPR. Storing certain IPs specifically as a measure against spammers and botnets should be fine, as long as that's really all you do with the data.
> Or perform analytics?
This is the heart of why the GDPR exists. You are not allowed to collect and analyse personal data about your users without a legitimate reason or their consent (a legitimate reason is not "it pays our bills"). Either ask the user for permission or only store aggregated data.
Most companies just store a ton of data about users without having any clue what to with it, "just in case". If you collect data for specific purposes, you don't need it to necessarily include any personal info ("how many users clicked the red button instead of the blue one" doesn't require any PII, for example).
Re: Shopify Is Illegal in Germany
#347Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Fair enough. Just wanted to make sure the take away wasnt that US companies cannot deliver services _at all_ to EU. With the CLOUD Act, I'm wondering if it is illegal. > Just curious whats your product/service? And how is PII used (high level)? As a dev and sw architect, and strong supporter of GDPR, I think its interesting to (attempt to) find engineering solutions for the challenges posed by GDPR (and Schrems) It…
Sorry about response time here, familiy stuff happened. Yes emails are PII. In general anything that can identify a person. Its a broad interpretation of "identify a person", and actually hasn't got anything to do with the sensitivity of the information. There are classes of PII for sensitive data, and extra rules for processing that, but when figuring out _if_ data is PII, sensitivity doesn't really come into it. An…
I think your ideas are wonderful, and I might try to implement as many of them as possible, just for privacy reasons, even if it is impossible for me to target the EU market.
In fact, because it's a code forge, there will be a client, just like Git is a "client" for GitHub. (It will be a self-contained VCS like Fossil.) So most of what you said will work.
In fact, you are exactly correct that I need the public key for signatures on code.
But there is one hang-up. While I could let the client handle checking for code signing, I still need to store the public key.
The reason for this is because the public key will also be for account recovery. Recovery via email will also be possible, unless I can't store the email address at all. But either email or public key will be required to recover accounts.
So unless I could make it so random clients could recover accounts for other users, I need to store the public key.
If you have ideas about how to get around that, please contact me. [1] Even if not, I would love to continue talking with you about this; I want to set the standard for protecting user privacy with my code forge.
> Here is the bad part about this idea: Schrems II is actually saying that its not enough for the server/service to be in EU. If the company running the server/service is US owned, its still considered a data transfer to a US entity. So the signature verification service in EU would have to be run by someone not you/your company. And you'd ofc need to pay to use that service, no free lunch. So you'll have to consider if the value of being able to offer your product to EU customers worth the hassle and cost of this setup?
Yeah, I thought so. The biggest problem with that is that I have absolutely NO contacts in Europe that I can use. I may not even be able to travel to Europe to set something like that up. So because I only care about money enough to make what I need to in order to support my wife and me, offering my product to the EU is not worth it for the hassle and cost.
> Btw something like the above would be privacy by design, which is a core principle of GDPR and if one makes a product in that way, that would be way more compliant than 99% of all software that existed pre GPRD and slapped compliance on after GDPR was introduced.
This is encouraging, though sad since I won't be able to make it work.
To be honest, I was hoping I could make an end-to-end encrypted code forge, but I also want to support FOSS projects, which have to do their stuff in public. End-to-end encryption would only work in that case if everyone had the client on their machine, which would not be likely for a VCS; there will be people that just want to download the code from the browser without needing an extra program to do so.
Again, I'd love to chat even more. Please contact me if you feel like doing so.
Re: Shopify Is Illegal in Germany
#348Earlier quoted context omitted.
Also, since the EU considers an IP address to be PII, anyone in the EU is not even allowed to connect to any website owned by a US company, as the IP address is a necessary piece of data to make the most basic TCP/IP connection work. Basically, the EU has put up a legal firewall between the US and the EU. Somehow this hasn't been realized fully or openly talked about, the the implication of their law is very clear.
> since the EU considers an IP address to be PII How can an IP address _not_ be PII? NIST defines [1] PII as: "Information that can be used to distinguish or trace an individual’s identity ... either alone or when combined with other personal or identifying information..." So it's not some EU caprice. [1] : https://csrc.nist.gov/glossary/term/personally_identifiable_...
Re: Shopify Is Illegal in Germany
#349Earlier quoted context omitted.
https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/features/translate/ never tried, but seems promising
Seems like it just takes the text and pastes it into google translator? Not even close to the same functionality of translating the entire page in situ with 2 clicks.
Can't any more edit the original message, so here is the right link: https://addons.mozilla.org/fr/firefox/addon/firefox-translat...