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Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

blogs.windows.com

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Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#341

Post by aliqot »

cylinder714 wrote: post #307

I'm stoked to see this as it's one more platform that can run OpenBSD 7.2. From the release announcement last week ( https://www.openbsd.org/72.html ): New/extended platforms: - Added support for Ampere Altra - Added support for Apple M2 - Added support for Lenovo ThinkPad x13s and other machines using the Qualcomm Snapdragon 8cx Gen 3 (SC8280XP) SoC.

I want to be on OpenBSD so bad but support is not the same as full support. There are still issues like battery life, GPU, etc. AFAIK everything still happens on the CPU, which increases battery draw.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#342

Post by ethbr0 »

pdntspa wrote: post #330
Sakos wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a chicken or the egg dilemma. Non-Apple ARM is too slow, so nobody wants Windows ARM, and nobody wants Windows ARM, so nobody is seriously working on consumer-targeted ARM. It will probably fail because Microsoft is generally bad at managing and marketing their hardware projects and coordinating with manufacturers and retail partners. Also, yeah, the pricing and performance is abysmal. But there is some sense to…

> . But there is some sense to trying to lay the groundwork for future ARM SoCs running Windows. They've been doing exactly that since Windows 8, if not earlier. Perhaps the Year of Windows on ARM is somewhere around the corner from the Year of the Linux Desktop I think we are on the ... third? ... attention cycle for this? Because they were trying pretty hard when W10 dropped too

The year of Linux-on-Windows-on-ARM Desktop.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#344

Post by my123 »

monocasa wrote: post #296
smoldesu wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Specs seem to list UEFI Secure Boot, which has been unlockable on all of Microsoft's Surface devices and previous ARM outings. Shipping this with a locked bootloader would be one hell of a breach from tradition (and probably undermine it's usefulness as a dev box anyways). Regardless, the internal SOC is the same as the new ARM Thinkpad which also shipped with an unlocked bootloader. Pretty much everything suggests t…

> Specs seem to list UEFI Secure Boot, which has been unlockable on all of Microsoft's Surface devices and previous ARM outings That doesn't quite seem accurate. For one example: https://www.theregister.com/2016/07/15/windows_fix_closes_rt...

For all ARM64 Windows devices, UEFI Secure Boot is end-user configurable. And yes that includes Surface Pro X, Pro 9 arm and this devkit.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#345

Post by jborean93 »

MBCook wrote: post #332
karmelapple wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who went back to AMD/Intel stuff? Any Apple user is far away from that, and comparing the performance, heat, noise, and battery differences between my Intel and Apple Silicon computers, I have no desire to regularly use an Intel machine until they make some stratospheric leap. (I still need it for some x86 vagrant boxes I have though!)

I meant the rest of the industry. They said “wow” and then went back to business as usual. They had talking points about how they’ll improve and performance (as always) and efficiency got talked up more. But when will any of that show up? Hardware takes time but I just don’t see reviewers demanding it. They’ll be happy if it shows up but they’re not calling out “this isn’t good enough” and I just don’t get it. How ca…

What can you do about it. Outside of Apple hardware running macOS you just can't get the same. We can demand all we want but no one can offer what is available from Apple yet. I'm certainly not surprised Qualcomm/Intel/AMD want to add more fire to their feet by talking up their competition.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#346

Post by Scharkenberg »

nuc1e0n wrote: post #343

Does windows on arm have emulation for x86 programs? I'd think something like what apple has done in the past with rosetta would be a necessity. It doesn't have to be super fast, just work well enough.

Yes, both 32-bit and 64-bit apps should work, as long as they don't rely on low-level x86 stuff.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#347

Post by derefr »

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #311
Sakos wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a chicken or the egg dilemma. Non-Apple ARM is too slow, so nobody wants Windows ARM, and nobody wants Windows ARM, so nobody is seriously working on consumer-targeted ARM. It will probably fail because Microsoft is generally bad at managing and marketing their hardware projects and coordinating with manufacturers and retail partners. Also, yeah, the pricing and performance is abysmal. But there is some sense to…

>I'm okay with Microsoft failing at projects like this. We don't need another Apple-like presence on the market. Personally I’m not ok with being locked out of potential computing power by platform so I can’t get excited as MS struggles to keep up. It’s either MS keeps up or the future ahead is dark.

> It’s either MS keeps up or the future ahead is dark.

You say that as if Apple will become some sort of PC-market hegemon, driving consumers and professionals to use its proprietary ARM hardware and OS despite having traditional Windows- or Linux-based workflows, simply because Apple's ARM is just so much faster.

Here's the third option: nobody cares what Apple is doing over in its corner of the PC market; the PC market remains an x86 market; and it continues to be driven by the needs of corporate buyers buying 1000+-part orders of PCs to outfit entire (non-IT!) businesses with; where those businesses don't care about having the fastest computer, but simply need "a" computer, with support and parts their internal IT department can swap out when needed; where the biggest factor driving purchases is TCO; and where TCO is driven down by commoditization and competition, not by vertical integration.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#348

Post by Sakos »

bigmattystyles wrote: post #142
Sakos wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a chicken or the egg dilemma. Non-Apple ARM is too slow, so nobody wants Windows ARM, and nobody wants Windows ARM, so nobody is seriously working on consumer-targeted ARM. It will probably fail because Microsoft is generally bad at managing and marketing their hardware projects and coordinating with manufacturers and retail partners. Also, yeah, the pricing and performance is abysmal. But there is some sense to…

>> Also, frankly, I'm okay with Microsoft failing at projects like this. We don't need another Apple-like presence on the market. Don't we?

No, in the non-Apple world, Microsoft doesn't drive the computing industry. It's market-driven coordination between a multitude of manufacturers and retailers where no one instance has control over the others. Apple is a vertically integrated monopoly that effectively rules all its partners (from apps to hardware) with an iron fist and can push its decisions on users (and partners) unilaterally.

So no, I don't want Microsoft to become another Apple.

From my point of view, Microsoft failing to do what Apple does is a good thing because it means there's some semblance of a working, competitive (if imperfect) market. They can't force other companies to dance to their tune.

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#349

Post by dignick »

nuc1e0n wrote: post #343

Does windows on arm have emulation for x86 programs? I'd think something like what apple has done in the past with rosetta would be a necessity. It doesn't have to be super fast, just work well enough.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/arm/apps-on-arm-x8...

Yes, but not for drivers (so device manufacturers have to write drivers specifically for ARM)

Re: Available Today: Windows Dev Kit 2023 a.k.a. Project Volterra

#350

Post by tim-- »

nuc1e0n wrote: post #343

Does windows on arm have emulation for x86 programs? I'd think something like what apple has done in the past with rosetta would be a necessity. It doesn't have to be super fast, just work well enough.

It sure does! https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/arm/apps-on-arm-x8...

It's probably nowhere near as good as Apple's emulation. https://www.techrepublic.com/article/windows-on-arm-this-is-...

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