It's ironic. My company hired Chetu some years ago. Their devs were doing 20 mins of work, but charging for 8.
We couldn't trust them to do anything.
And Chetu doesn't trust its employees. Heh
Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court
341–350 of 466 posts
Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court
#342It's always something toxic when it comes to US companies. I had to do multiple background checks. In Romania they are unheard of.
It's hardly a US company. Most people working there are from India.
Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court
#343Earlier quoted context omitted.
I can't imagine what they would sue for in a US court. Most states are at will and refusal to comply with company policy and procedures is a one-way ticket out
Instead of re-litigating the employment issues couldn't they just sue to enforce the fact that they didn't pay their bill in the other suite? Also unless they have zero assets in the EU wouldn't other member states potentially be an option to seize said assets?
I don't think that the trial decision in a foreign court is binding in US courts. The US court will not enforce them because they are completely different jurisdictions
Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court
#344Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think there's a lot of people that want things to be fair at the individual level ("that person gets time off for a child, but that other, childless person works the whole time")... but don't see the greater "benefit to society overall" part of it. It's not necessarily that they're being greedy; it may not even be something that would benefit them directly. They just never consider that they're paying a cost for th…
In some cases it’s probably legitimately “unfair”. Me for example am probably at the more unfair end. I - have high income so pay a large % into taxes - not a citizen so don’t enjoy some of the benefits of military protection - wasn’t raised here so didn’t use any of the earlier year services - likely won’t retire here so won’t use those either Most of my tax dollars goes to fund others in the country. But as a socie…
Presumably you're not paying taxes to , but you reap the benefits of the people that did pay taxes there during this time. So it works out in the end. It's the same thing, just at a global level instead of a national level. Admittedly, the rules aren't the same everywhere.
Plus, as noted elsewhere, you are getting benefits from the taxes you're paying now, only just on some of it.
Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court
#345I love it when US companies meet Dutch labor laws.
> I love it when US companies meet Dutch labor laws. This is the first time I've heard of any US company requiring an employee to keep a camera on themselves 9 hours per day. Obviously, that's not some standard US company practice. I wouldn't be surprised if these same practices would fail in a US court.
This. I have worked at a number of US employers, and if a US employee sued over similar circumstances, they would almost certainly win (IANAL). There's a whole long process that you need to go through to fire someone, especially if the organization is medium to large, and far more serious sounding infractions have been found to be insufficient cause for firing. Given that he said he was already sharing his screen, it's hard to see why a webcam would be a legally defensible requirement, even in the U.S.
One big difference is the variability of the outcome in the U.S. You might get a result where such a firing is upheld, or you might get several million $ in punitive damages. Most companies don't care to roll the dice.
Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court
#346If the boss wants to monitor me working they should better not tell me. My entire intelligence melts down in anxiety and performance drops to near-zero if I know I am being watched. Why the heck do they want to watch people? What are they trying to discover? Isn't monitoring the results of the job enough?
Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court
#347Earlier quoted context omitted.
As others said, the dutch term is probably different. Their (bad) legal argument was. He refused to follow work instructions, hence he did not perform his work as required, hence we can fire him "op staande voet" which is an on the spot firing that does not require a long process of attempting to improve employee performance. They needed a 'op staande voet' firing because the long process takes months. The justificat…
> I believe many US states have similar procedures. Most US companies follow similar procedures because they are a sensible thing to do. But 49 out of 50 US states have "at will" employment which means that employers can fire any employee at any time for no reason at all.
"At will" employment, especially for larger organizations, does not mean this. There are lots and lots of cases of employees, in nearly every state, suing for wrongful termination and winning.
Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court
#348Earlier quoted context omitted.
lawful just means the order itself wasn't illegal. It doesn't mean that it's "enforcing the law" If I tell you to go buy 10 apples, refusing would be insubordination because it's legal to buy apples. If I tell you to go steal 10 apples, refusing would not be insubordination because it's legal to buy apples. Until the court ruled against them, the view of the firm would have been it was legal to require someone to hav…
There is also the word "reasonable". In civil law countries like Netherlands, that actually means something. One can argue that even if being ordered to turn on the webcam all day is not illegal, it is still an unreasonable request e.g. because it infringes on privacy too much.
The employer disagreed and so called it insubordination.
The employer was also found wrong by a court.
Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court
#349I love it when US companies meet Dutch labor laws.
A first glance, this may sound like a case of a bad US company meeting reasonable labor laws, but Euro laws of often unreasonably restrictive. Companies choose to leave entirely, as happened here. How many people lost their jobs so this one person could have their payout? This company definitely sucks, but still unfortunate for others caught in the crossfire.
I think we will be okay without this kind of company, given employment rate is one of the highest in the world and a main problem at the moment is labor shortages... But thanks for your "concern"
Re: Dutch employee fired by U.S. firm for shutting off webcam awarded €75K in court
#350It's always something toxic when it comes to US companies. I had to do multiple background checks. In Romania they are unheard of.
I’ve never had a background check for any US job I’ve had, other than a government contractor, so this is not universal. I don’t even think it’s normal. Maybe my sample size of 15 or so is just non-representative, though. I don’t tend to apply to the sorts of firms that specialize in bureaucracy.
I would be surprised if you worked at a financial or healthcare company and did not have a basic background check done. It could just be the type of jobs you gravitate towards. It's not really bureaucracy, but a financial company doesn't want to hire someone who already has a financial crime conviction.